What should we do about the way Elements work?

[Kodai]

Okay, so Shrewdie and I have been talking about Elements and how they work, so now I want to know what you guys think.

The part she has a problem with is the section that says:

If you have an Element and use an attack of the Element that defeats your Element (e.g. you are Fire Element and use Deluge), your damage is cut by 25% of the base damage (rounded up).
If you have an Element and use an attack of the Element that is beaten by your Element (e.g. you are Fire Element and use Frost), your damage is cut by 25% of the base damage (rounded up).

In other words, this section means that if you're of a certain Element and use an attack of an Element that's either weak to or strong against your Element, you do less damage.
Our opinions stem from how we believe Elements work. Shrewdie thinks that Elements are like wizards using magic – they can learn whatever spells they like, and are able to learn and use certain spells more easily than others. My thought is that, when you say a pet has an Element, you mean that the pet only really has power over that particular Element. It can learn other Elemental attacks, but the ones related to its true Element are strongest, and because of its strong connection to this Element, it is weakened when using an attack of an Element that defeats its own (or is beaten by its own, because its Element crushes the power of the attack's Element).
Shrewdie would like to get rid of the above-mentioned section of the rules. I'd like to know what you guys think about the whole thing. o ^o

EDIT: The rule has been removed now. Thank you for your input~

[Shieba]

I kinda like the way it is. o_o To me, it makes sense. We have STAB, so we should have the opposite, too. At least that's how I see it.

[Jaykobell]

Just two other things I'll quickly mention. One of them is rather nitpicky and 'it's my personal case' sort of deal, but.

1. Some pets don't fight in pet form, nor do they actually use powers in the form of 'magic'. The only example I can think of right now is zapdragon's Fuyuki, currently in the Spring Tournament. She's in human form and using an elemental blade, which is what attacks with the elements, and not the Kuhna herself (correct me if I skimmed wrong). This is the best example to explain my logic, and as to why the current logic/Kodai's logic doesn't add up in my head: the Kuhna herself isn't using the elements, but the blade is. And while I agreed with Kodai's argument:

Shrewd: A wizard can learn just any element, right? Same logic applies.
Kodai: Depends what kind of wizard; some just specialize in one element.

I agree, but I don't remember ever seeing this effect in any world/game/what-have-you. Kodai mentioned the Pokemon games have recently started including that in their move mechanism. If anybody's seen it anywhere, direct me to that? I personally have never seen this system.

So to me, one pet 'being' an element just translates to being in control of it. You're not actually your element (you could be, but). So being a Fire Element, it just means you master that element above all the others, but that doesn't stop you from learning the others. Not to mention, aren't your attack usually 'harmless' towards you? As in... you're in control of your powers, so they hurt who you choose to hurt. If you're confused, or will it so, then you lose focus (in confusion) and your powers go 'wild' to a certain extent, letting them hurt you.

2. It'd be for the sake of battling simplicity. This is the 'it's my own opinion/way of thinking/etc' weak argument. I don't like doing battles with elements much, now that this system is in here, because it just doesn't make sense to me... and, it can get confusing. I've had to check myself more than once every time because I keep thinking I'm going to calculate the damage wrong, because of all those things influencing your final damage value. I think keeping it to a STAB is just simpler and works better.

^ With WORDS, that is my logic, and why I can't wrap my head around the system.

[Freezair]

There's no damage reduction system for Pokemon, and Bulbapedia's page on the matter lists this as a common misconception.

...Just poppin' in to say that.

[Kodai]

With the Pokemon thing, I was thinking more of the older games. o ^o Not the new ones in which you have the Fire type that learns a Water move (although that one makes sense to me, as I think it's not really a "water" move so much as "steam"?). And yeah, as I've said, Pokemon types don't automatically do less damage to themselves. Some of them are even strong against their own type (although it could be said that 'Ghost' and 'Dragon' aren't really elements, but rather creatures of a certain sort fighting against themselves). But we're not talking about that part of the rules, so.
...Unless you're talking about where it says STAB is not reduced for dual-types? Because that's not where I got the idea from for these rules. o ^o I didn't even know people thought that of Pokemon. These rules are just from my personal idea of how Elements should work.

Anyways. P= People need to post more. ; ^;

[ToxicShadow]

I agree more with Shrewd's idea, seeing as my own idea pretty much follows the idea that technically a pet [as a witch/mage/or-what-have-you] can learn whatever elemental attacks they want, regardless of what they specialize in. Maybe not all, because of everyone's personal character ideas, but the majority. [You can't please everyone.] Or more so, I think I stand with the belief that just because a pet uses a certain elemental attack doesn't mean that it is that element and, thus, harmed by an opposite element.

I could use any number of my characters to follow that statement. My Lucain, Naraqua, is considered to be a water mage, however, that is only because she decided to train her powers based on that element. She could have chosen anything at any time. Just because she uses attacks with water, it doesn't mean that she is water. The only time I really see a stronger type effecting her, such as an Electric type, would be if she was currently having water appear directly from her and her opponent used an electric attack on the water to create a conductive force against her.

That being said, I understand that it never doing any extra damage wouldn't make sense if we even bothered to attach elements, but I see no reason to add complications like those this topic is about. I think the two matters are just an unnecessary complication, both for those with pets and those hosting battles.

[Shieba]

On that topic, I must admit that elements are mad confusing to me as a whole. This is, I think, mainly because of the descriptions being in English, though, and because the whole system isn't fully in my blood yet. While I can easily follow the Pokémon-like style, the third part - that elements are feeding each other in battle - is just hjshdskjahd to me. Not because I don't understand it, but because it seems difficult for me to associate two other elements with one element. Basically, I doubt I will ever be able to remember what beats what and feeds what here, besides "light and dark beat the crap out of each other". Too many components for my little brain. D8

On top of all of that, we then have STAB and guuh. Brain is melting. D8 So maybe it would actually be good to shorten things a bit? I dunno. I must admit...if I were a mod and had to calculate battles, I probably would want that, too. I understand where Shrewdie is coming from. As "only" a fighter and with me leaving these matters to the mods, I kinda...just ignore these things and mindlessly use my Traits? xD; That's basically it.

Still, to me, Kodai's system does make sense when I look at each element by itself. It is very logical. Just the whole thing is kinda over my head. But again, this is an English problem. I seem to have problems with the wording "defeats" and "is beaten by". I dunno, I'm normally good at English, but for a reason I can't name, I confuse these two even though they mean opposite things. D8 Faaaail.

tl;dr: I just don't look at all at the whole elemental list in the in-depth battle Trait list. It goes way over my head, probably because it's just words to me and not like Pokémon, where I have elements symbolized by colors. I need a visual chart! Can someone make a visual chart? DDDDD8

[Thunder]

When Kodai made that giant element rules list, I was pretty confused. I always thought that elements only did double damage when used against a pet who was weak against that element. I did not know we had STAB or the debated rule above.

I don't really want to argue technicalities on how elements should work because every world has its own concept of elements, and there is no defined answer. We have so many users with so many different ideas for their pets that it would be impossible to create an all-encompassing rule on how elements in the world of Evelon works. I just think that for the sake of convenience for both users and mods, we should use a system that is not overly complex but still gives strategy.

I think we should get rid of this damage cut rule. It hurts to think about and can become really complicated if dual elements come into play. I can see where you're coming from, Kodai, but for the sake of not making our minds explode...get rid of it xD; I also have never seen any video game that uses this system. I like the idea of plain old "weak against, take double damage; strong against, take half damage". I'm not even sure if I want to keep STAB, although that's considerably easier to calculate than damage cuts and could probably stay in the system.

I did have another idea, though, if you want a compromise. Maybe we can remove STAB/damage reduction from the regular rules and turn it into a trait instead. Pets who do not have that trait will not have STAB/damage reduction. Pets who do have the trait will. While attacks that match their element will do double damage, they also have the disadvantage of getting non-matching elemental attack damage cut in half.

[Kodai]

On the topic of Elements feeding each other: I actually got that idea from... Yu-Gi-Oh! No, not the Duel Monsters card game part. In one of the "Season 0" episodes/in the manga, there is a game based on the Chinese elements. Each of the five elements defeats another element and is strengthened when paired with a specific element. For example, Earth defeats Water and is strengthened when paired with Fire.
Maybe I should use a different phrase other than 'feeding/fed by'? o ^o At any rate, I realize that the way Elements feed each other is not intuitive at all, and to this end, I'm going to try to fix it so that it makes more sense. (I might have to create a new Element, but I'll see what happens.)

STAB/damage reduction as Traits. o ^o That could be interesting. We already have damage reduction Traits (although if we got rid of damage reduction outside of Traits, I'd probably change their effect from halving damage to the 'cut by 25%'). Although I don't understand your last statement?

disadvantage of getting non-matching elemental attack damage cut in half

I don't see why non-matching attacks would have their damage cut.

[Freezair]

I think Thunder meant like the current system, where, for example, an Ice-type using Pyro means the attack is weaker.

Personally, I think some element of STAB should always be in place--even if it's only like 25%--but maybe the suggested bonus could up that while at the same time causing the "weakening" effect described above.

And I wouldn't mind a new element, if you can think of a good one.

[Shieba]

Can you just write it... "X defeats Y, gets defeated by Z and strengthened by W?" So much easier to read and understand.

I know why I was only able to understand YGO's card game and not the other now, lol. I actually read that manga a long time ago.

I actually agree with Thunder. "Weak against, take double damage; strong against, take half damage" is sooo nice and easy to understand - even though not good for the double damage part. We just got rid of the ridiculous STAB values, they're much better now. But the system is nice and easy, haha.

[Kodai]

but maybe the suggested bonus could up that while at the same time causing the "weakening" effect described above.

...I keep rereading that and I can't figure out what you mean. o ^o; Is it that you mean such a Trait could increase the STAB value past 25% but would also decrease the effectiveness of different (i.e. not your type) Elemental Attacks?

But yeah, if I did make STAB a Trait-based thing, I'd keep it at the +25% value (just like I'd keep damage reduction to -25%).

I can totally write it that way. o uo I... am not totally sure why I said it the other way in the first place. (Maybe that's how they said it in the manga?)

[Freezair]

Pretty much, that's what I meant, yeah.

[ToxicShadow]

If you want to add another element, how about quintessence? It's considered to be the fifth element with the set of air, fire, water and earth. It's basically considered power.

[Freezair]

I think Energy sort of fills that spot for us. It doesn't interact with any of the other elements and is generally the "generic" element.