[Nyxia]

Since this is the last bit of input I will give at all. Incentive for using the other areas can be so very simple that they don't involve pets/breeding/making Ks. Want to breath a little life back into the war? Maybe there could be some simple very general hints posted for each side, like a treasure hunt. People could get together in groups, or go it alone, and try to locate whatever it is in an area of their choice which may or may not be the area of the thing. General easily thrown together images and hints could be post when the group/user hits x amount of posts or some other secret outline, that tells them if they found a piece of an item/map/whatever, or if they are in the wrong area and to try again. The whole "incentive" of it would be both an idea start to get people out of the breeding area, get the war moving, and at the very very end of going to multiple location, these people could get the "win" a special war badge, extra and above normal BP, or even the chance to be part of a super special mission for their side of the war.

Does it involve people getting only breedable pets? No it doesn't have to. Does it put strain on the Mods/Staff? I don't know. Does it maybe change things up that we can put out there to attract new users? Yeah, I think so.

[Thunder]

I pose a basic question:

Why do we need motivation to roleplay?  To do the thing we all joined this site to do? :'|  That's what I'm not getting. Most sites don't offer anything at all, no monetary reward, for posting 5+ sentences in a forum post. Since when has there ever been need for a reason to enjoy writing and character building? This thread was meant to provide motivation, or in this case, disincentive--taking away the KS gain from the breeding area so people have more incentive to skip a few slots and instead RP in the regular areas to save up.

Zap hits the nail on the head with how I feel about the motivation argument. As Kyrit said, I think most of us joined this site not just for the art, but for the simple joy of writing. If you don't like writing, you probably wouldn't be here in the first place xD; Of course, getting nice, pretty pets feels good, but ultimately we're all here since we want to tell some kind of story. If that doesn't sound like enough motivation, keep in mind that we're considering this change to make breeding the incentive for roleplaying in the regular areas, alongside KS gain. And if you spend the same amount of time posting in regular areas as you do posting in the breeding area currently, you'd still make the exact same amount of KS at the exact same rate.

We're definitely happy to take any and all suggestions that can breathe life into Evelon outside of breeding, but in the end it's the user base -- us staff included -- that has to create activity on Evelon. Providing features is futile if people do not actively use said features. I don't say this to imply Evelon's users haven't been utilizing features; in fact I'm extremely glad to see people enjoying recent things like the Scintilla and revamped breeding. I just bring this up to point out that this is a truth for any roleplaying forum/game/website, not just Evelon.

In regards to the suggested token system, I'd personally have to think more on it. It does intrigue me, but at the moment I'm very hesitant to make it a way of getting custom pets, if only because free customs does mean Baal loses potential income. Evelon is still her site, and she should get the final say on that. A small sum of KS/breeding keys sounds like a much better option should the rest of the staff consider implementing this.

As far as the war goes, the mods do agree that it needs some more love. I promise we are working on some things that will hopefully spice it up. It's taken some time on the backseat partly because of work on Scintilla orders, breedings, and another big project that Evelon has desperately needed for a while now. But stuff is coming, I can guarantee that :>

[MillietheWarrior]

I pose a basic question:

Why do we need motivation to roleplay?  To do the thing we all joined this site to do? :'|  That's what I'm not getting. Most sites don't offer anything at all, no monetary reward, for posting 5+ sentences in a forum post. Since when has there ever been need for a reason to enjoy writing and character building? This thread was meant to provide motivation, or in this case, disincentive--taking away the KS gain from the breeding area so people have more incentive to skip a few slots and instead RP in the regular areas to save up.

Other sites don't have currency for the site, nor do they have places where you can spend the currency. People enjoy writing and character building, yes, but the KS is an added bonus, and if you don't have KS, quite frankly, you don't have much. You can't buy kuhnas, you can't get the ones you want changed, you can't BIN pets. (Shrugs) That's the gist of what the KS are for, and the site has become mostly a mass of trading kuhnas, lucain and paragon, and not much else for other pets, GT or KS.

I didn't join to make Keystones. I joined to roleplay the pretty pets I found. None of the shops existed, breeding was only Kuhnas at the time, and when we did make keystones it was a lot less than we do now. None of that stopped me from roleplaying though, because roleplaying is exactly what I had joined the site for. We're here to give fun features for everyone to enjoy, but why should we keep it up if the only thing users care about anymore is endlessly breeding pets and neglecting that we've got probably over, if not at least close to, 100 other non-breedable pets? Why should we make more pets, revamp old ones, and do anything other than just, "Well, people seem to like breeding Kuhna/Lucain/Paragon/Soveris. Guess we can just do that until everyone gets bored of Evelon."

We want to give you guys things to do. We want to create things that aren't just KS sinks. We have a suggestion board where people can come to us and give us literally any ideas they think would be nice, but aside from the last suggestion that basically told us "You guys are overworking yourselves," there hasn't been a suggestion in months. Want to suggest a way to earn KS that isn't just roleplaying (so you can jump to breeding again if you don't care about anything but breedables)? Suggest it. Think you've got an idea that would help get users to utilize the normal roleplaying area more often? Suggest it.

And yes, I know, I joined for the same reasons. And I still enjoy it the same way, but you need currency to buy pets you want, because most of the time, people either want/need KS, or they don't want the pets you have. Its especially true for people who have very few pets they can trade or are willing to trade. It's just the way the site works now. And I did suggest something via PMs, but all I was told was that you were discussing it with one final mod, and then nothing. So I assumed it was a no. So I just didn't suggest anything anymore.

Either way, I'm just not in favor of the new suggestion, but I don't have any other suggestions to throw out to fix anything because I felt as though it was forgotten or pushed to the side. So I just let it go. (Shrugs) Either way, I know things in the breeding area are going to change, and there is little I can do to sway or change it. So I suppose that's the last of my input.

[Ander]

Even though I don't post as much as I used to, in my heyday and now I love breeding as much as the next user, and I'm completely behind the idea of taking KS out of the breeding areas.

Especially since the breeding room change, I've really enjoyed reading random breedings while I'm stuck at work. While the relationships between characters are striking, it has helped to accentuate an impression I've had for some time now: it's felt for quite a while like some characters' entire stories - or at the very least, their relationships - have been played out entirely through breeding rooms. While that works, I guess, it just feels off to me from a natural-character-progression standpoint. With this change in place, I would look forward to seeing relationships realized in commonplace roleplay, and breeding rooms used as isolated incidents within those already existing romances - much like breeding actually is. I'm hardly saying it's every character, or pertinent to every situation, as writers and those with treasured OCs can be a sadistic lot and sometimes relationships begin in questionable fashions - but for those for whom it is pertinent, I'm just saying that a romp on the black sands or a picnic on the city walls would make some equally nice buildup, and maybe that would happen once you earn KS for posting it and not saving it up for the route that also gives you babies.

There's also the obvious point that previous responses have indicated, mainly that KS has become a central facet of Evelon's economy. Without KS, you can't afford to take part in much that the site has to offer. If anything, that might be a central problem in Evelon as a whole, right there. If it gets to the point where it feels like you have to earn KS, and without it, you're stifled - well, on a site that is based on roleplaying pretty pets and stretching your creativity as far as it can go without snapping first and foremost, that sounds like a bummer. And I know, you roleplay in order to earn KS to do these things; but the currency itself, and all the shiny that it buys, should be as an afterthought to the stories. Time ago was, one had to use their imagination and literary skills to make everyone who played with their characters see their long golden locks, mechanical appendages, or ominously floating shadowy minions - just because we have the power to make those changes visible doesn't mean that the idea of conveying them in writing and aspiring to make them material should go out the window, or worse: become some sort of entitlement, like the pretty character's picture isn't "whole" or "complete" without these changes.

But I digress. As my opinion stands, I think the creation of additional pets and the prizes from licenses are incentive/reward enough for breeding. I understand that the current KS system, along with the changes to breeding as a whole (which were awesome and fall under the "not-broke-don't-fix" category as far as I know?) has led to some broken economic conditions that really need to be addressed. I think that creating a system of rewarding users for not breeding is, as much as I would stand to gain from such a system, pretty much an unnecessary headache and a good way to tip the broken scale in the opposite direction.

And, just for the record, it's for the purposes of fixing that scale that I'm behind this idea. Not necessarily, despite my wishful thinking above, for the sake of increasing roleplay in the common areas, simply because I don't know if this would do that. I hope it will. It would be super sweet if it did. But there's no way of knowing and it seems beside the current point to consider.

[ToxxicRenegadeAngel]

Being one of the people most guilty of mainly breeding and not roleplaying very much, I don't really feel like my opinion would be valued, particularly as I'm not very active on here at the moment overall. However, I would like to put a couple of things across.

The breeding system is very, very good for those of us who use it, and we understand that it puts a lot of work on the mods. The thing is (and I know there's been a lot of talk about other roleplay sites not having currency or extras, and not needing them back in Evelon's history) that the things which are causing the issue were implemented with the intention of catching people's attention.

Events such as the war, hunts, contests, and RE2 events were aimed at not only providing extra enjoyment for site users, but also to encourage roleplaying activities in the areas allotted to the event. And when they dry up, and the next new event comes along, people follow it and move into those areas; breeding is just that much more attractive because it's a way to collect pets to hoard or sell without spending $RL.

The breeding system was revamped to make it a lot easier for users to breed, and this is fantastic; nobody wants to see the new system go. However, it is new, and is extremely popular. How mad did everybody go when the kuhna salon and tiger scintilla opened? What about the shops?

We love the new stuff Evelon has put in place, and I think a lot of us would lost our motivation to be here if the systems were removed and it went back to how Evelon was in the beginning - like playing a videogame with add-ons, and suddenly all you have is the basic game again. Everybody keeps complaining that the site is dead - it would certainly seem like it if these things were taken away. And I'm certain that taking features we adore away because 'we weren't grateful they were there and should understand what it's like to not have them' would actually drive users away and make Evelon a dead site.

Should we be grateful we have them? Absolutely. Are we? Debatable. It probably doesn't seem like it sometimes. But telling us we should be grateful about the things we have because other people don't have them doesn't actually work, especially when we've gotten so used to them. Maybe the problem is actually that we expect so much of the site because Evelon promises so much, but again, these are not the features we want to see leave. And the fact that Evelon offers features that other sites don't? That's just one of the many things that make it attractive to us.

The site was designed and intended to be a roleplaying site; it has now developed beyond that, and we should try and see it for what it is now, rather than what it was intended to be. Instead of focusing on 'we didn't have/need it back then' or 'it's not necessary because other sites don't offer it' we should be focusing on 'this doesn't work; what can we do to fix it without removing it?' which is what the mods are asking us to do here.

I personally do not want to see the KS removed from the breeding area; I think that it's good that you make some (if not all) of your money back. However, I think that other things can be put in place with better results.

In terms of wanting to reduce breeding, I would like to suggest the following (potentially unpopular) points:

1. Raise the number of posts needed to complete a successful breeding.

This would cause people to use the characters more, and may give them incentive to roleplay them outside the breeding area. I know I have created characters there by accident during random non-plot-related breedings, and it has given me the motivation to take them elsewhere, whether or not I have acted upon it.

2. Limit how many breedings we can have ongoing at the same time.

The issue at the moment is that we can potentially enter three breedings per month with no time limit and only a single post per breeder every six days required (which I will address in my next point).
If you use all three slots with other users, keep your breedings going for a while, and then finish them all at a similar point, that is a load of work for a mod to cover all of your babies. We are given three slots a month; instead of reducing this, make us only able to use three breeding slots as they are intended. Want to self-breed? One slot used, two free for other people. Want to breed with three people? Go for it. But finish your three before you begin a new one.
We could even state that you can only have one self-breeding on the go at any one time, to reduce self-breeding whilst encouraging co-breeding.
This would help encourage roleplaying in other areas for the simple fact that you have to wait for your partner to post, leaving a lot of free time provided you aren't typing up 50 breeding posts per day.

3. Reduce the time required between posts.

It is all too easy for those of us (myself included) to simply log in and post once every twelve days in order to not fail the breeding. Require me to post more often, and I am forced to log in more often, forcing me to plan breedings better and perhaps RP more.

4. Implement a penalty for failed breedings.

At the moment, we have received a generalised comment from the mods regarding this issue, and those of us who have caused breedings to fail have the guilt factor for having made someone else lose out. But these things don't stop the behaviour from repeating.
If a penalty was applied for a failed breeding, such as not being able to breed for a month, or losing two of your next month's slots as if you were to self-breed, people would be much less inclined to let breedings fail.

5. Make the cost of breeding disproportionate to the payout received.

Increasing the cost of breeding (to 200 KS for example) whilst the room only pays out part of it would require me to RP, even if I had a partner. This way we would still receive monetary incentive for it, but would need to be active elsewhere in order to breed.

6. Reduce the number of babies given per breeding.

This is going to be one of the more unpopular ones, but it has to be said; most Lucain litters nowadays have three pups to them if not a full litter, and we've had a couple that bent the rules and had five. At the very least, reducing the number of lucain pups made (whilst still allowing for the possibility of a full litter) would reduce mod work.

7. Implement a standard breeding restriction on all bred pets.

Breeding for profit is a problem; devaluing the bred pets would reduce it, and add extra incentive for the Customs to be bought.
For example; "My custom can breed indefinitely - I want to buy more so I can keep breeding" is a lot more attractive than "My Bred lucain can only breed 5 times"; more customs = more money for Baal, who is currently losing out on this, despite the recent sale.
This could even be stated for purely non-canon breedings; that way, nobody loses out on their ant queen of a character, but profit breeding is reduced.

8. Implement a devaluing scale for multi-bred breedables.

Each time you breed a pet, you increase your 'stock'. Pets from long lines are worth the same as randoms at the moment, and breedables are bred as baby factories in some cases.
If each time I bred the pet it reduced it's official value, I would reduce the breedings done with that pet. Maybe have a chart up with the scale as a selling guideline.

9. Place a restriction on non-plot-related breedings.

I do a lot of them myself, I'll admit; make it so that I can only do a non-plot related breeding once every three months, and that reduces my breedings from 12 to 4 per year. A lot less work.
This would not affect breedings done with keys, however, as we do pay for them with GT and it would be unfair to apply this restriction.

10. Key breedings.

I hoard my keys, because I want to use them for plot breedings, whilst my slots are used for general breeding. If there was a time limit on this hoarding - say, 6 months from the date of purchase - I would use them instead of hoarding.
The key releases would need to be brought back though, in order to balance this out.

In terms of encouraging other parts of the site to be used, it will be difficult because of how many projects the mods have on their plates at this point in time. There simply isn't enough time or mods to have everything done as soon as we would like, and we understand this. Maybe having one mod focus on events - say each month, an event such as a hunt takes place in two to three of the roleplay areas, providing rewards and encouraging users to roleplay there - would help. Otherwise, we must simply chug along as we already do.

Perhaps having events occur that change the location - even temporarily - would help? Annual events, scheduled on a calendar, that don't revolve around pets. I'm going to have a think about that, and aim to post on the member suggestions thread.

I know that what I'm saying here will not be popular, but if the aim is to reduce breeding, well, there you go.

[Mousen]

4. Implement a penalty for failed breedings.

At the moment, we have received a generalised comment from the mods regarding this issue, and those of us who have caused breedings to fail have the guilt factor for having made someone else lose out. But these things don't stop the behaviour from repeating.
If a penalty was applied for a failed breeding, such as not being able to breed for a month, or losing two of your next month's slots as if you were to self-breed, people would be much less inclined to let breedings fail.

It's a little bit late here, so I'm sorry if this post sounds a little bit off, but I just wanted to pick up on this?
Personally, this is something I'd be very much against. I understand the sentiment behind the suggestion, but I think this would make this feature of the site very negative and stressful. I suppose it'd be very easy to say "oh, if you don't like it, then make sure you don't fail your room", but sometimes life happens, or it slips someone's mind. It happens. I think penalizing people for it is a bit too far? Plus, I know there's at least one member of Evelon with an anxiety disorder (hi guys!), and something like this really, really wouldn't help any.

Plus, it doesn't really matter if someone fails their room? In the sense of: if they fail, the mods don't have to make any pups/hatchlings/etc. so in that way encouraging people to not fail would actually be a bad thing? Psh;;;

[MillietheWarrior]

1. Raise the number of posts needed to complete a successful breeding.

This would cause people to use the characters more, and may give them incentive to roleplay them outside the breeding area. I know I have created characters there by accident during random non-plot-related breedings, and it has given me the motivation to take them elsewhere, whether or not I have acted upon it.

This is a good idea in theory, but what they are trying to do is limit KS intake, and raising the posts required only gives you more KS than you spent on the room.

2. Limit how many breedings we can have ongoing at the same time.

The issue at the moment is that we can potentially enter three breedings per month with no time limit and only a single post per breeder every six days required (which I will address in my next point).
If you use all three slots with other users, keep your breedings going for a while, and then finish them all at a similar point, that is a load of work for a mod to cover all of your babies. We are given three slots a month; instead of reducing this, make us only able to use three breeding slots as they are intended. Want to self-breed? One slot used, two free for other people. Want to breed with three people? Go for it. But finish your three before you begin a new one.
We could even state that you can only have one self-breeding on the go at any one time, to reduce self-breeding whilst encouraging co-breeding.
This would help encourage roleplaying in other areas for the simple fact that you have to wait for your partner to post, leaving a lot of free time provided you aren't typing up 50 breeding posts per day.

This idea I like, limiting breeding rooms, but in a different way. Rather than limiting how many you can have going on (because if you do that, then some people won't get to breed that month at all, there's just too many people) limit how many each person can have. One or two rooms a month is realistic.

3. Reduce the time required between posts.

It is all too easy for those of us (myself included) to simply log in and post once every twelve days in order to not fail the breeding. Require me to post more often, and I am forced to log in more often, forcing me to plan breedings better and perhaps RP more.

This would factor into the same thing Mousen said: people who have anxiety, or 'life happens' moments may not be able to get on as often as others, especially when school starts again. The seven day time limit is pretty fair as is.

7. Implement a standard breeding restriction on all bred pets.

Breeding for profit is a problem; devaluing the bred pets would reduce it, and add extra incentive for the Customs to be bought.
For example; "My custom can breed indefinitely - I want to buy more so I can keep breeding" is a lot more attractive than "My Bred lucain can only breed 5 times"; more customs = more money for Baal, who is currently losing out on this, despite the recent sale.
This could even be stated for purely non-canon breedings; that way, nobody loses out on their ant queen of a character, but profit breeding is reduced.

8. Implement a devaluing scale for multi-bred breedables.

Each time you breed a pet, you increase your 'stock'. Pets from long lines are worth the same as randoms at the moment, and breedables are bred as baby factories in some cases.
If each time I bred the pet it reduced it's official value, I would reduce the breedings done with that pet. Maybe have a chart up with the scale as a selling guideline.

This pretty much can't be done. People pay money, GT or otherwise, for their breedables, and if there aren't any restrictions, why implement them? Each pet is the property of that user, and if they want to implement restrictions if there are none, then that is there prerogative. Forcing restrictions on ALL bred pets is not a good idea, nor can it really be done (I for one, wouldn't let me breedables have restrictions unless I wanted them, and I know the same can be said for others).

9. Place a restriction on non-plot-related breedings.

I do a lot of them myself, I'll admit; make it so that I can only do a non-plot related breeding once every three months, and that reduces my breedings from 12 to 4 per year. A lot less work.
This would not affect breedings done with keys, however, as we do pay for them with GT and it would be unfair to apply this restriction.

This is unrealistic as well; why can't people just say its for a plot of their own somewhere in time for their breedable? There'd be no way to regulate something like that.

10. Key breedings.

I hoard my keys, because I want to use them for plot breedings, whilst my slots are used for general breeding. If there was a time limit on this hoarding - say, 6 months from the date of purchase - I would use them instead of hoarding.
The key releases would need to be brought back though, in order to balance this out.

I don't think they'd bring back keys, but they might. Maybe you can have one room a month, and then buy one key a month? That way, you'd still be spending that money somehow, and the keys could be slightly more expensive? And you'd still have one guaranteed room a month that you didn't have to worry about trying to fight for or buy (you'd pay for it the same as it is now) and then have the opportunity to buy a key (but those who have bought a key cannot buy another til it is used and can only buy one key of a certain breedable each time; like only one gon, or one lucain, and can only have one key of each at any given time, and if their room key is being used/in play, they still cannot purchase a new key until that room is complete to give others plenty of time to grab one)

As for events to stimulate things, I would enjoy hosting multiple events a year (and had an idea for a spring one) but I am simply out of pets and things to use as prizes. I think having more events hosted by users is a good idea, because if nothing else, it stimulates a bit of roleplay among people for prizes and things they can use and enjoy.

[Kyrit]

Toxxic, your posts has quite a few suggestions, to which I'm quite thankful. When people don't like our idea, it's great to see them actually suggest their own. I'm going to make a few comments on each of them though, from the prospective of a mod (and maybe a bit as a user, though I don't get much RPing done myself these days)

1. Raise the number of posts needed to complete a successful breeding

I don't see this as something that would give users incentive to RP outside of the breeding area. If anything it just means they've getting even more of their plot done within the span of a single breeding room. Generally, the staff also hates seeing breedings that have lasted 3+ months, which this suggestion feels like it'd just drag rooms on longer.

Limit how many breedings we can have ongoing at the same time.

This one I'm not so opposed to, though it does very little to nerf the gains of the breeding system. It would just encourage users to actually finish their rooms quicker if they want to start more, which I'm all for. Being in three rooms at once is plenty (and I say that despite being in 4 at the current time). It also means users aren't spreading themselves as thin on ongoing roleplays, and if they are waiting for a reply from a partner, sure. Go RP in a general RP area. So definitely a suggestion I'm not against, even if I don't see it doing too much on its own.
As far as self breedings go though, they'll always take 2 slots up, which is to encourage breeding with a partner since you don't have to pay all on your own up front. I don't mind users being in as many self breedings as they want, though the current system at least keeps them from starting more than one per month (with exception to Keys)

3. Reduce the time required between posts

People would probably fuss about this more than they would removing KS gain, I feel like. We've had a lot of change in this area over time. We started out as 5 days for an entire room, moved to 7 days for an entire room, went to 2 weeks for an entire room, and eventually we landed with what we have now. Even with this system we still get a handful of users failing rooms from time to time, so I think the only thing this would cause is more failed rooms from those used to our current system.

4. Implement a penalty for failed breedings.

There already is a penalty for this. 1.) You get no babies. 2.) Any potions you used are wasted. 3.) The KS you spent on the room is wasted.

5. Make the cost of breeding disproportionate to the payout received.

The staff has already mentioned we specifically didn't want to raise room costs. We don't want to prevent new members (even though we rarely get those) from picking up one of Vance's Rentals and jumping in a breeding with another user.

6. Reduce the number of babies given per breeding.

Paragon and Soveris already get a mimimum of 2 babies. Going to 1 baby causes the trouble of people breeding with a partner not having enough babies to split up. Full litters are fairly rare already, so there's really no need for this. And the only time Lucain can get 5 pups is incredibly rare from a Generative Draught.

7. Implement a standard breeding restriction on all bred pets.

As a staff member and just a member in general I do not like this. This sort of restriction would require a lot of policing on our end, making sure people have only bred their pets a certain number of times. Users can enforce their own breeding restrictions, but a forum wide restriction would just mean a lot of work for the staff.

Implement a devaluing scale for multi-bred breedables.

This is, again, something the staff just cannot do. It would require far too much policing, people people already value pets based on what they would trade for. Just because I put up a bred Lucain doesn't mean I'll get a random out of it. Sometimes people are even willing to go over and above the 'worth' of a pet just because they want it. Either it's way pretty to them or they just need it for a plot. What a pet is worth to you is up to you, not the staff.

9. Place a restriction on non-plot-related breedings.

This would, again, require too much policing from the staff. How are we supposed to know is a breeding is part of a plot or just some random RP?

10. Key breedings.

It would be unfair to those owning keys right now to retroactively say, "You only have 6 months to use this," especially if they aren't a currently active member. We also only give keys out as prizes and the like now because users can breed so much. Removing KS gain from the breeding area would make them more valuable prizes too.

[ToxicShadow]

I have yet to reply to this thread, although I've been just keeping my eyes on it. Most of my opinions tend to be shared with other staff/members, so I haven't felt the need to jump in. However...

Limit how many breedings we can have ongoing at the same time.

I'm against this entirely. I enjoy the fact that, with the new system, I can still breed, relatively, at my own pace while still being able to utilize all of my slots and slowly roleplay regularly on the side, as well. I will say, since the change to the breeding system, I have successfully used up every single one of my slots and have not failed a room. I have managed this, in spite of all of my real life obligations. However, if the system changes, taking out the KS gain from the breeding area, and I STILL make the effort to get the KS to use up all of my slots in a month, I wont be able to if I'm taking my time with my other breedings still. I enjoy being able to roleplay at a fairly relaxed pace, including breedings. If I couldn't, I'd become incredibly stressed out, I'm sure, and no one wants something that is supposed to be fun to become stressful.

[Thunder]

I mostly wish to address Toxxic in this post. I understand where your concerns are coming from; however, I think you almost make it sound like the new breeding system is going away entirely, which it is not. People will still be able to use their monthly slots as they see fit, just as long as they have the funds to do so. Even if we do remove the KS gain, you can definitely still make money from breeding if you want to sell any babies you don't need (or even trade the baby for a different pet you'd like, thus ignoring the need for KS altogether). Most Kuhnas, for instance, are priced around 200-250 KS. Selling even just one Kuhna kit very easily covers the expense of a Kuhna room.

Again, I'm happy to see that the new breeding system helped inject some life back into Evelon, and I think it's a much fairer, more accessible system than what we had before, but it is definitely broken from an economic standpoint. It's similar to what happened with the farms way back when. And I think Ander raises a valid point; we do want this to help nudge users back to roleplaying in other areas, but whether this actually succeeds in doing so hinges not only on the Keystone economy, but also how willing the user base is to roleplay in those other areas.

1. Raise the number of posts needed to complete a successful breeding.
This would definitely slow the completion of breedings down, but if we were to do this while maintaining the KS gain, the greater number of posts would have to come with a greater room cost to keep things even. More posts = more KS that would result in a net profit if we didn't also adjust the room cost. So it doesn't seem to me that this would actually help with the economy; in fact it would worsen the exact situation we're trying to address. As for encouraging using characters outside of the breeding area more, that sounds tenuous to me. I do sometimes get attached to a spontaneously made character in a breeding, but whether that actually happens seems more like a user thing and not a breeding area thing, if that makes sense.

2. Limit how many breedings we can have ongoing at the same time.
I don't think there's any need to formally do this because you, as the user, can decide for yourself whether you want to spend your slots or not. There's no rule that says you have to use all of your slots every month; if you feel overwhelmed by breeding, you already have the liberty to not breed. Also, making self-breedings use only one slot would actually increase the number of breedings. Right now, you use two slots for for a self-breeding, meaning you can only do one other breeding with someone else for that month for a total of two breedings.

3. Reduce the time required between posts.
There have already been quite a few room failures with the 7 day time limit as it is, so I'm not sure whether reducing this time limit to the original 5 days or so would go well with everyone since naturally people don't want to fail their rooms. Maybe it would actually help stop rooms from failing if people feel more pressure, but maybe it wouldn't. I'm honestly not sure which way it would go.

4. Implement a penalty for failed breedings.
In my personal view, the loss of potential babies, the burned slot, and the loss of any items used for the failed breeding is already a penalty in itself. If that doesn't discourage repeat offenses, I'm not really sure what else would, and I'd be worried that taking away future slots would come off as too harsh a penalty. In any case I'm not really sure if this has much to do with the current issue on hand, the economy aspect of breeding.

5. Make the cost of breeding disproportionate to the payout received.
This is probably the most reasonable option out of those you've presented. I'd just be curious as to what other people would think about this. I do worry this might be difficult for newer users.

6. Reduce the number of babies given per breeding.
This still doesn't directly address the issue that breedings pay themselves off. It would be less work for mods, but as far as KS goes, this wouldn't affect that.

7. Implement a standard breeding restriction on all bred pets.
Other than the fact that people would probably be frustrated about this, how would we monitor this? There are well over 1000 Lucain in existence, there are over 500 Kuhna litters, etc. I don't think keeping track of this is feasible, especially if you add on figuring out what is a "purely non-canon breeding".

8. Implement a devaluing scale for multi-bred breedables.
People already do this in unofficially, if you look at how folks price their breedables in trade threads. It has never significantly impacted the number of breedings going on.

9. Place a restriction on non-plot-related breedings.
Again, no idea how we would reasonably keep track of this.

10. Key breedings.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you bringing this up because you feel having the keys and not using them is a problem? If so, I think removing the KS gain from the breeding area would actually encourage people to use keys, since if someone doesn't have enough KS they can just use a key to give themselves a free breeding. As things stand now, there isn't any economic reason to use keys since breedings always pay themselves off. People have only used keys to gain themselves bonus breedings in addition to their essentially free three slots.

[AuroraSky]

Don't have a lot of time, but I figured I would make a suggestion? Perhaps it could be somewhat of a compromise? (EDIT: Not sure if this was suggested already)

What if we do what the mods suggested, and take away the KS gain from the Breeding area. But what if every month, every member was given one free breeding room, so even though they don't make any KS from the room, they don't have to spend the 40-60KS to breed. But then if you want to continue to use your other two slots, you have to pay for them?

It would decrease numbers of litters, because people would still have to spend their own KS, but still give everyone to do at least one breeding a month?

Like I said, rough sketch of an idea.

[ToxxicRenegadeAngel]

Having read through the topic, it appeared that  a recurring theme was getting users to breed less often, rather than the original economic issue, which was why I stated everything geared towards dissuading users from breeding.

Likewise, the roleplaying in other areas theme appears quite a bit; what I meant to say was that there needs to be some motivation to roleplay there now, because it's what we as users expect from Evelon. Yes, it's materialistic and those who want to roleplay without further motivation already do so. For everyone else, there needs to be a spark to motivate the writing.

The mods are working hard, and we appreciate that; once the projects they are working on come to fruition, there will be a lot more activity on-site. The fact of the matter is that we're just not there yet, and won't be for a while.

Just a quick suggestion to go with Millie's contest idea; that new shop that opened where you can trade pets for KS? Why don't we suggest monthly contests, and all of the pets traded in for that month go to the 'winner' whose contest idea is chosen?

[ToxicShadow]

In the grand scheme of things, I honestly preferred the idea of raising breeding room costs over removing the KS gain in breeding areas. However, since as a group, we decided it wouldn't be a good idea to raise the costs and end up making it so new users couldn't breed, we figured that removing the KS gain was the only other really viable option.

Although, bringing this thread to the users was also a way of seeing if any other viable options were offered and to sort of give you all a heads up and let you in on the dilemma we are facing. Simply put, we're actually hoping to decrease the amount of breedings that occur (as well as balancing out the economy), so the majority of staff can also better focus on all of the other projects and features we want, and are trying, to bring you.

Anyways~

I came up with another suggestion. If we wanted to raise the room costs, instead of removing the KS gain, then we could offer free (or discounted) breedings to new users. My original idea was to give new users their first three (3) breedings either free or discounted. In which case, that helps solves the problem of new users not being able to breed if we increased prices.

[Thunder]

Just a quick suggestion to go with Millie's contest idea; that new shop that opened where you can trade pets for KS? Why don't we suggest monthly contests, and all of the pets traded in for that month go to the 'winner' whose contest idea is chosen?

The Saloon is intended to send unwanted pets that no one is buying into the void, so those pets wouldn't become contest prizes in the future. That said, we do have a good number of things we can use as contest prizes. There's still a few pets from users who quit that we might rehome using contests or other events. We've also been figuring out some stuff with the Alonia pets, though I don't want to say too much on that right now ovo Contests are coming, trust me on this one xD

What if we do what the mods suggested, and take away the KS gain from the Breeding area. But what if every month, every member was given one free breeding room, so even though they don't make any KS from the room, they don't have to spend the 40-60KS to breed. But then if you want to continue to use your other two slots, you have to pay for them?

Interesting idea. I'm not 100% sure how I feel about this at the moment, so I'll defer to the users and other staff on this one for now.

I came up with another suggestion. If we wanted to raise the room costs, instead of removing the KS gain, then we could offer free (or discounted) breedings to new users. My original idea was to give new users their first three (3) breedings either free or discounted. In which case, that helps solves the problem of new users not being able to breed if we increased prices.

This definitely appeals to me, as it solves the issue with possibly restricting new users while still doing something about the KS.

[amanda784]

In all honesty I don't think the KS earning should be taken away because you earn back the fee. It kind of makes sense that you make back the exact fee. If you fail then you don't. You lose money for not completing it. The KS is incentive to complete a breeding.

I would be okay with two breeding slots if they were like the keys. I think it would be a little disappointing to only get to do one breeding a month with all of the lucains, khunas, etc., that we work for. I don't think we would ever get done all the breedings we wanted to. However, if you changed the way they worked and for a self breeding it took 1 slot and a shared breeding only one of the two involved had to give up a slot I think it would be better. In all reality, I think it should stick to the way it is. Using slots like keys would actually open up MORE breedings.

Maybe have breedings as a reward for so many posts outside of the breeding area? That would absolutely fix that problem. Besides, shouldn't those who roleplay more get more slots? That means less failed breedings!