[Silver]

Breeding has become so commonplace (and don't get me wrong, I LOVE the new system to bits; but as we're seeing, it needs a little editing)--to the point where mods are so bogged down with making litters that almost all other site mechanisms have come to a heavy slowdown--that people have completely moved away from regular RP areas. Because hey! Why RP in regular areas when you can still get KS from breeding AND get pretty babies? This is the problem. There's no longer any incentive to do anything but breed on this website, and that was not the website's intended use.

This is pretty much what I wanted to say on the matter.

I'm here because I like to roleplay. Getting KS and babies and all that stuff is just extra. Even if we don't get anything else to compensate for it (like events or something), I still support removing the KS gain from breeding posts.

I feel like the breeding system is far too lucrative. Of course I like it the way it is. Who wouldn't like easy to obtain, practically free pets? On the other hand, I can see how it would be really tough to keep up with for the artists (I know this pain myself), and I definitely see how it's sucked all the activity away from the rest of the site. I think taking the KS out of breeding posts is a small price to pay in order to keep the awesome new breeding system.

[Atoli01]

Maybe if people are worried about missing slots so they can do regular RPs, they could be compensated somehow with some small amounts of KS? Like half the room price for each room you don't do every month, to give you a booster for the next month's slots? Honestly I don't see what the problem is with letting a few slots slide regardless, but maybe that could be a neat feature. Of course, users would have to post to claim it, otherwise things could get extremely complicated; we'd need a thread in the breeding area where people could post and say "I'm turning in [number] slots this month for KS" which relinquishes your ability to use them that month, but gets you half the price of a room to share with someone next month. I dunno.

Going with Zap's suggestion, the mods would also have to set a price for the "rooms". Kuhna rooms are 80 KS per, and all other rooms 120 KS per, so what room price would be figured with that half? Incorporating Mojave's tweaking into it, maybe 30-40 KS would be a fair enough payout? If a user turned in all their slots for the month, then it would work out to at least one slot the next month, if that month turned out to be unexpectedly busy. It would also give users who weren't as interested in breeding a way to earn some quick KS to say, update a few Kuhna features. That's a system that seems like it could be abused on the other hand as well however, as much as I like the sound of it...

I agree of course that breeding shouldn't be the main focus of the website, but that's also in theory. Remember how dead the site was for a time before the breeding system was revamped? I doubt it'd return to that state just from taking KS gains out of the question, but it seems like another feature (such as the hunts, like Kreepy mentioned) might be best for keeping everyone's attention if no alterations can be made to the KS issue without removing it entirely. It seems like it's a tricky issue; it could go either way...

[crow]

In regards to Zap's suggestion, why not pay out "tokens" or something instead of KS? Every unused slot gives a token, and two (or maybe three) tokens are exchangeable for a free breeding room. It's easier to keep track of since there won't be as many KS transactions for me to process, and this way it restricts the "reward" for not using your slots to the breeding system itself--- unless people would want these rewards to be more general, to move focus away from breeding more thoroughly. That way the issue of the KS cost difference between Kuhna rooms and other rooms could be negated too.

[Mousen]

While, obviously, yeah, earning KS is good I do think the breeding system is a little bit too good as it stands right now. I think taking away some pressure from staff while encouraging users to RP is a good thing! And, I don't always have much time myself, so I understand that, but I'm in about 10 normal RPs and I've only been in one breeding room since the system got revamped. It's not atrociously difficult to maintain a balance, especially if you only write 1-2 paragraphs per reply.

So, yeah. I agree. u wu

[Atoli01]

In regards to Zap's suggestion, why not pay out "tokens" or something instead of KS? Every unused slot gives a token, and two (or maybe three) tokens are exchangeable for a free breeding room. It's easier to keep track of since there won't be as many KS transactions for me to process, and this way it restricts the "reward" for not using your slots to the breeding system itself--- unless people would want these rewards to be more general, to move focus away from breeding more thoroughly. That way the issue of the KS cost difference between Kuhna rooms and other rooms could be negated too.

I'm actually in full agreement with this. owo I'd say three tokens would be a solid number; a month's worth of slots for one free slot. To go with the whole slot system, I don't think it'd make a lot of sense for them to be tradeable?

What if there were rewards for a higher number of tokens? Say, 9-12 tokens (three to four months' worth of rooms), and you can redeem them for a free breedable custom. It would give users something to aim for when they don't have the money to lay down for a custom, and cut back on the workload of the mods. A single custom is a lot less than nine litters' worth of babies. I'm just using that as an example. Maybe other rewards could be a random Kuhna, or a random breeding potion?

Just thought I'd throw the idea out there.

[Freezair]

I'm going to say that I'm not in favor of a system rewarding people for not using breeding rooms, for the simple fact that not breeding is way too easy. I don't think anyone has used every single slot they've had since the system was overhauled, and if someone only breeds every now and then, I think it'd be way too easy to rack up tokens/rewards/whatever. Plus, it means that the system effectively rewards everyone no matter what choice they make, which I think would quickly devalue the awards and quite possibly lead to inflation of some kind.

However, I would be in favor of a system that allowed people to trade in breeding room keys, provided they were owned for some period of time. I know I'm sitting on several I doubt I'm going to use, since I don't breed enough to ever need the free slot.

[Mojave]

I like the idea for tokens a lot actually, especially if we can turn them in for other things! If customs were an option, I'd suggest making them the hardest thing to come by- like sacrificing the equivalent of six months of breedings for one. o3o As for how many slots equal one token, I'd suggest three slots for one token. I don't imagine everyone would start cashing in breeding rooms left and right for tokens, but maybe 1-2 a month so that's two or three months to get one token on average which would mean it'd take a lot of sacrificing to get a custom pet of any kind. I suggest making it hard to obtain so users would still be encouraged to breed (encouraged to rp elsewhere to have the funds to breed) and for those of us that won't be able to use three slots a month, we still get something out of it, even if it. Of course, I'd also suggest smaller things in the shop to temp players with other than customs. Like maybe retired evolvers (sans kuhnas though I'd be okay with that too) and other things.

[Atoli01]

I don't think anyone has used every single slot they've had since the system was overhauled, and if someone only breeds every now and then, I think it'd be way too easy to rack up tokens/rewards/whatever. Plus, it means that the system effectively rewards everyone no matter what choice they make, which I think would quickly devalue the awards and quite possibly lead to inflation of some kind.

I understand what you mean with the devaluing, but I don't think it would be very valid with the token system. Users would still have to make a post to claim their tokens each month. If we wanted to limit it more, maybe the option would only be available the first five days of any month? That would prevent users from, at the end of the month, going, "Well I only used two slots, I'll go cash in the third on the last day." Users would have to put aside slots right away. It wouldn't devalue pets any more than the current system does. You'd be sacrificing, say, 10+ entire litters for the sake of one custom. I had added onto crow's token idea with the rewards in the hope that it would actually encourage some users not to breed, thus decreasing the mods' workload. Currently, it's nothing but a "loss" not to use up every one of your three slots each month. There's nothing in place to encourage users to cut back on the breeding, save for the time limits associated with the rooms for some users.

[zapdragon555]

I don't think anyone has used every single slot they've had since the system was overhauled, and if someone only breeds every now and then, I think it'd be way too easy to rack up tokens/rewards/whatever. Plus, it means that the system effectively rewards everyone no matter what choice they make, which I think would quickly devalue the awards and quite possibly lead to inflation of some kind.

I understand what you mean with the devaluing, but I don't think it would be very valid with the token system. Users would still have to make a post to claim their tokens each month. If we wanted to limit it more, maybe the option would only be available the first five days of any month? That would prevent users from, at the end of the month, going, "Well I only used two slots, I'll go cash in the third on the last day." Users would have to put aside slots right away. It wouldn't devalue pets any more than the current system does. You'd be sacrificing, say, 10+ entire litters for the sake of one custom. I had added onto crow's token idea with the rewards in the hope that it would actually encourage some users not to breed, thus decreasing the mods' workload. Currently, it's nothing but a "loss" not to use up every one of your three slots each month. There's nothing in place to encourage users to cut back on the breeding, save for the time limits associated with the rooms for some users.

Freezie makes a very, very good point in saying that it would devalue things a bit--but Atoli's counterpoint also makes total sense to me (the bolded points are the kickers for me). Especially if we do tokens rather than keystones. IF we do keystones, then it would possibly cause an inflation problem, much like the farms in Seduki did back when that was a thing. But if we use the breeding tokens, which can eventually be redeemed for prizes like customs or just breeding rooms, it creates a new system all its own that would, in my opinion, work very smoothly. People would want to set aside some breeding rooms for cashing in, rather than just feel bummed out about missing their chance to breed. It's good to provide a 'win-win' in this situation (a reasonable one, mind you), or else no one would take the 'lose' side by choice.

(Also chuckles because I think I am guilty of having used every single slot, sooo,,, I am one of the culprits, ehegh.)

[SpringsSong]

Just dropping in to say that I wouldn't really mind the loss of KS from the breeding areas.  I mean, sure, there are characters whose plots require children, but getting those children is only about a 25-post endeavor (multiply for every encounter afterwards that would result in children)--after you've received the litter, then it's only logical that, to develop one's plot with your shiny new babies that you've received, you'd move it to a roleplay in one of the other--not under time-constraints for posting--areas.

I, however, am not entirely sold on a token system just yet for users who don't use their breeding slots.  This does not mean that I am against it!  Maybe that's just because I'm getting closer to my Class B (and therefore Class A) Paragon License, and I want to catch up on my Soveri licenses, so I'm doing my best to get out there and get those types of breedings and use all my breeding slots--however, it does have the chance to be a very appealing alternative to a total loss of KS in that area, if worked out correctly (example, as Atoli suggested, sacrificing 10+ breedings and therefore 10+ litters for one custom, AND having to decide early on in the month that you would want to set so many slots aside, instead of waiting till the last minute to cash in (an) unused slot(s)).

[Nyxia]

Personally I'm not a major fan of taking the KS out of the breeding area. I have to agree with Millie, with very little else to really do right now I'd probably massively cut back my breedings as well. I have a crazy work schedule right now, which while I try to get on and respond to things during the week doesn't always happen. I see no one remembers a time not that long ago when the only thing on Evelon active was advertise, very little else popped up as having anything new. My concern here is that by doing taking the Ks out of the breeding area, with really not a lot else to do, things are going to die down a whole lot. I understand fully that Evelon is a role-play site, but by there hasn't been a lot of motivation to role-play.

I know you guys are busy, I know there are things in the works behind the scenes. I just think maybe you guys should throw us a small bone? Ks can't be the only motivation for role-playing, it hasn't worked in the past. Maybe there is a way to do something more, something fairly simple, that will interest and get people back into the regular areas of the site? I know RE2 has been gone for a while now, which likely makes hunts more difficult on the mods and staff. I'm thinking though that Shrewdy's Easter egg hunt from a bit back, had us searching about all sorts of threads for those eggs. What if there was some way to have a small little thing similar, only involving people actually role-playing? A small item may or may not be findable in area that have a clue listed in a thread, and if there is less breeding that lets the mods breath. I think it might be really simple to just have a premade image, or another clue that could pop up. People can work on them alone in their own thread, or with others in a larger role-play.

Idk...maybe you should ignore me now...I am just getting home from work, and yeah not gone to bed yet...sorry.

[MillietheWarrior]

I'm sort of in favor of token breeding systems, but not really. I still don't like the idea. Why not just cut back three breedings to two? Most people don't use all three anyway, and it would make less work for the Mods. Or even cut them down to one? Without anything else to motivate the role-playing elsewhere on the site (and again, maybe things are in the works, but we just don't know), the entire site will die again, like it did before breedings got rebooted. KS, as Nyxia said, is not really much motivation for Roleplaying. And despite knowing how to utilize time management skills, as Mojave suggested learning, I even still have a hard time being prompt on breedings (Very few breedings last less than a month). Even with the time constraint, there is enough leeway to post within a five or six day period and still be busy in real life. But if you did that in a regular RP, you wouldn't earn much KS, unless you had like, seven or so going at once. I don't usually like getting involved in anything concerning changes, but I feel this affects us more than other changes in the past because the breeding rooms are basically all the activity our site has going for it at this point.

[zapdragon555]

I pose a basic question:

Why do we need motivation to roleplay?  To do the thing we all joined this site to do? :'|  That's what I'm not getting. Most sites don't offer anything at all, no monetary reward, for posting 5+ sentences in a forum post. Since when has there ever been need for a reason to enjoy writing and character building? This thread was meant to provide motivation, or in this case, disincentive--taking away the KS gain from the breeding area so people have more incentive to skip a few slots and instead RP in the regular areas to save up.

This token system, if implemented correctly, shouldn't cut back on activity. Additionally, I think the word 'activity' is being used as leverage here. I know there was a long period of time where Evelon was clinically dead; no one posted much of anything and users just lurked online. It was sad. But a lot of dedicated people worked hard to bringing people back, like the Kuhna revamps and the breeding system change and advertising on other sites, and now we're somewhat active again! And it's really, really cool. However... if our new version of active is riding this heavily on the back of breedings (not solely, mind you, but heavily), then that's a bit of a worrisome thing, given the strain it puts on the mods and the reward-oriented mindset it puts us in. Activity is not far removed from us as users; activity is us. We as users decide where to focus our positive energies and our efforts.

I'm not saying breeding is bad by any means--it's a really fun feature that I take part in probably more often than I should. I'm not sure if I've missed a slot since the new system was implemented. But I also know that I'm a graduated senior from high school in the middle of summer with no job, and thus, I have a lot of free time (which will be cut short around mid-august with classes but that's no the point lolol) to do both breedings and regular RPs. But people keep saying that breedings are too stressful for them; I think we're also forgetting something very, very important about Evelon, and that's that it's meant to be a fun and fairly relaxing environment where writers and artists can commune and have a good time, and collect pretty adoptables as well. Yes, breeding is a part of that, but it's not as though breeding is being taken away. It's value will just go up slightly in that it will be come a service much like the Scintilla or the like--you pay money you've saved up by other means to get an extra service. Because essentially, that's what breeding is: it's an extra service where you get all new and unique pets to roleplay with or collect, and to make any extra profit off of that (i.e. paying for the room to the point where you've basically lost nothing) seems a little odd to me.

@ Lowering slots, it's not a bad idea at all. Two might be better, though, so you can have 2 breedings with someone else OR 1 self breeding. At the same time though, I don't think number of slots is really the issue, if people don't always fill them anyway.

[AuroraSky]

Just wanted to pop in here to say/add a few things (and hopefully they make sense because I'm typing this during a work break and trying to get it all in)~

Personally, while I understand how difficult it must be for the mods to keep up with the litters and I do agree that changes need to be made, I am against taking away the KS gains from breeding rooms as a solution. KS, for me at least, is hard to come by (and if the Mods are doing something about that, then that's great! But like others have said, we don't know what's in the works just yet), and I roleplay pretty frequently in the regular boards. But even with my roleplays, self and not, it's still hard to earn a substantial amount of KS from that alone, as it takes a lot of time. During the summer I can spend all day here replying to roleplays and earning KS, but once I head back to school that's definitely going to slow down (and as it was mentioned here before) some people don't even get a 'summer break' anymore. And with new awesome features that the Mods have made, such as the Brewery, or Seasonal Specialties, or the Tiger Scintilla, or even just the Advertise section, I always try to earn as much KS as I can (and spend it sparingly) so I can afford to utilize these features.

I love breeding, and I love this new breeding system. I try and do it frequently, because I remember the days where only like two rooms were available like every five months and I never got to breed because of that. And breeding is the only way that I would have ever gotten my first and only Paragon, the only way I'll be able to get more Paragon without having to give up pets I love or real money, or the majority of my Kuhnas, and all the plot babies that I need. But realistically, if breeding starts costing 40 or 60KS, plus potions I might need to do so, I don't see myself breeding that much anymore. Even now when I breed, I don't even usually get that KS back for months to follow, it's not like an overnight process. And while breeding is not the only reason I'm here, as I said I have multiple RPs going on, it is a feature that has a lot of practical uses that I really love about Evelon, and one that distinguishes it from most other roleplaying sites.

That being said. I've been reading a lot about the tokens, but at this point there are so many ideas that have been bouncing around it's hard to see what exactly the system might look like, but if I can get a grip on what it would entail then I'll be sure to comment. And for now, if anything, I'd prefer to just cut the slots. But I wanted to put my support for the idea that I don't think gains should be taken away. <3

[Kyrit]

I feel as though all those against are missing the point when I see the reoccurring theme of "I don't see myself breeding that much anymore." We're hoping to see a decrease in breedings, guys. And the incentive (or at least one, considering Lakundra, Kuhna edits, ect are all incentives as well) to roleplay in other areas is to try to get as many breedings as you can per month (if the max is left at 3). No, we don't expect everyone to be able to breed all three times. Those that are able to though earned those three breedings via roleplaying. We also have a lot of Room Keys in the system that don't get used right now, because who needs to bother with room keys when they get three, essentially free, breeding slots per month? Some of the loss of breeding from KS can be suplimented with room keys, especially since they are now a prize for some of the licenses.

And no, we don't expect users to earn all of their KS at all times from roleplaying. As I mentioned, that was why Salvis's Salvage Saloon was created. I also mentioned that contests will be making a return (which usually give KS as a prize option)

As for the suggested token system, I'm not particularly for it. Breeding is something users should work toward, not something we should pay users for not having the time to do. If we did go with it, it would need a lot of balancing with things like how Atoli suggested only making it available for a few days at the beginning of the month. While I am personally against it, that doesn't mean I am the voice of the staff. This is just my personal opinion. All suggestions will be talked about, and if they seem viable they'll at least be tried - especially if they seem to be popular ones.

It's very much as Zap said though. Activity on Evelon is what you the users make it. When I joined Evelon ages ago (7? 8? 9? How many years ago?) I didn't join to make Keystones. I joined to roleplay the pretty pets I found. None of the shops existed, breeding was only Kuhnas at the time, and when we did make keystones it was a lot less than we do now. None of that stopped me from roleplaying though, because roleplaying is exactly what I had joined the site for. We're here to give fun features for everyone to enjoy, but why should we keep it up if the only thing users care about anymore is endlessly breeding pets and neglecting that we've got probably over, if not at least close to, 100 other non-breedable pets? Why should we make more pets, revamp old ones, and do anything other than just, "Well, people seem to like breeding Kuhna/Lucain/Paragon/Soveris. Guess we can just do that until everyone gets bored of Evelon."

We want to give you guys things to do. We want to create things that aren't just KS sinks. We have a suggestion board where people can come to us and give us literally any ideas they think would be nice, but aside from the last suggestion that basically told us "You guys are overworking yourselves," there hasn't been a suggestion in months. Want to suggest a way to earn KS that isn't just roleplaying (so you can jump to breeding again if you don't care about anything but breedables)? Suggest it. Think you've got an idea that would help get users to utilize the normal roleplaying area more often? Suggest it.