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Re: * New Traits

Postby Shieba » 06/12/2011 2:12 AM

No reason to go all ironic on me. Traits can be assigned as everyone sees fit and everyone can apply for restricted Traits that do not always get granted. You also know that some pets, who are more bound to be stronger, start with higher stats (Lucain, Paragon, Khimera, Bruma...). And yes, if you ask, I train my fighter pets right now solely in Lya Pointa so that their stats match their personality.
I don't really feel like elaborating further on your silly reply, since Trait-assigning is fair to everyone since everyone is equal there while giving "stat bonuses" for beginning pets is not. The area bonuses offer enough of that while being fair.



I know my dreams are made of you
Of you and only for you
Your ocean pulls me under
Your voice tears me asunder
Love me before the last petal falls






However cold the wind and rain
I'll be there to ease your pain
However cruel the mirrors of sin
Remember beauty is found within




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Re: * New Traits

Postby Freezair » 06/12/2011 2:21 AM

But if you think that people should still have to do training posts to get stats that fit their character, then why do you think it so wrong that they'd have to train their trait, too? I seriously don't understand why you have this disconnect. You don't have a problem with training stats "in character," and in fact train stats so that you get those that fit a character, yet you're up in arms over the idea of training a Trait the same way?

I'm so cool (too bad I'm a loser).
I'm so smart (too bad I can't get anything figured out)!
I'm so brave (too bad I'm a baby).
I'm so fly
That's probably why it feels just like I'm falling for the first time!

I'm so green (it's really amazing).
I'm so clean (too bad I can't get all the dirt off of me)!
I'm so sane (It's driving me crazy)!
It's so strange
I can't believe I'm falling for the first time!

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Re: * New Traits

Postby Shieba » 06/12/2011 2:35 AM

I don't have a problem with training stats. I have a problem with grinding. If you check my RPs in Lya Pointa, you'll see that these RP posts are all but training RPs besides one I had to do and hated myself for it. I don't grind if I can avoid it, as it defeats the purpose of RPing for me.

The disconnect is the fairness of the idea. Stat leveling is the same for everyone and you can choose not to apply bonuses or apply them by leveling in a certain area. This is, essentially, character development, too. What you suggest is a method that would not go well with character development. What if I have a pet that I want to train in how to dodge and it also has the "Klutz" Trait? It would, despite hard training, possibly never reach the same level his fellow student has. Yet I get forced to upgrade his % chance when he hits level 10, along with the one of his fellow student? I do not have, as with the area bonuses, the chance to not apply them.

That said, Traits are still there for description. Stats say very little about my pet's personality. I would still mourn if Traits like Arterial Strike gets sacked to give Dodge different levels. All vampires will weep along with me. D8

From what I've seen in pens, nothing is wrong. People don't abuse the system like you feared. People just finally updated their pens to the new Traits. And you are up to fix something that's not broken into a system that is even more broken (like the Righteousness/Darkness system was), making everyone again redo their pen? I just don't understand why you would do that. If we had the same issues that we had with the old system and some Traits like Stone Blood back then, I would, but the new system seems flawless right now. Yet you claimed that some things are not to your liking. Could you maybe name the specific Traits and tell me why they are broken? Things can get nerfed without another system revolution, you know. The "unfairness"/"abuse"-reason is not valid, that's for sure.



I know my dreams are made of you
Of you and only for you
Your ocean pulls me under
Your voice tears me asunder
Love me before the last petal falls






However cold the wind and rain
I'll be there to ease your pain
However cruel the mirrors of sin
Remember beauty is found within




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Re: * New Traits

Postby Freezair » 06/12/2011 2:54 AM

Was it ever once stated that you would have to level up a trait? You could keep a lamer trait if you wanted. And really, stat growth can go against character development, too. No matter how pacificistic my character is, they're still going to gain a point to Offense when they level up. That's why all of it is optional and only important if you want to battle. There is no reason why you can't simply write up a little paragraph to describe what your pet is capable of; you don't have to rely on keywords.

And I really consider the current system far from "flawless." I think the way AP is weighted for certain traits is all wrong, and I find it utterly annoying that certain creatures automatically start with Restricted or Shrine traits. I am also, as I have noted, displeased with the large number of Restricted traits. I can understand wanting to give certain pets "advantages" due to size or something, but it makes for battling imbalances.

THAT IS WHY I AM ARGUING FOR A TIERED SYSTEM. So that CERTAIN PETS DO NOT START OFF WITH AUTOMATIC GAME BREAKERS but CAN STILL HAVE TRAITS BEFITTING CHARACTERS. Either that, or the removal of EVERY SINGLE RESTRICTED OR SHRINE TRAIT FROM A PET'S STARTING STATS.

I'm so cool (too bad I'm a loser).
I'm so smart (too bad I can't get anything figured out)!
I'm so brave (too bad I'm a baby).
I'm so fly
That's probably why it feels just like I'm falling for the first time!

I'm so green (it's really amazing).
I'm so clean (too bad I can't get all the dirt off of me)!
I'm so sane (It's driving me crazy)!
It's so strange
I can't believe I'm falling for the first time!

Critters -Ramblings - Single & Looking -Majikul Wishlist -This Stuff's Important

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Re: * New Traits

Postby Shieba » 06/12/2011 3:03 AM

I agree that Traits that need a certain height and things are annoying, but they make sense this way. Same with racial/color Traits. But I do agree that seeing so many Lucain in the area because of their Spiked Body is meh. As such, I wouldn't be against the removal of all Restricted/Shrine Traits from them. Especially the Shrine Traits. I actually agree with you there. I remember being quite "I this real!?" when I saw Elusive Foe on the Falleef or Neuleef or whatever had been in a tournament a bit back.

I must say, I love it, though, that Traits are restricted. I like applying for them. It makes people think why pets should have this-or-that Trait, which is what they are for - personality description. It's what stops people from abusing them, too.
...If you are annoyed by the restrictions because requests sat there for three months last time before they were checked, though...I must agree with you there. o3o



I know my dreams are made of you
Of you and only for you
Your ocean pulls me under
Your voice tears me asunder
Love me before the last petal falls






However cold the wind and rain
I'll be there to ease your pain
However cruel the mirrors of sin
Remember beauty is found within




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Re: * New Traits

Postby Freezair » 06/12/2011 3:07 AM

That's part of it too. I don't like the fact that the element of human approval is required. Before the Requests thread existed, very, very, very, very few people ever asked for Restricted traits. Not only because of the wait, but because I suspect many people found the idea of mod begging to be intimidating. A more automatic system with tiers or stat requirements or somesuch would allow it to become easier while still providing incentive to reach for them.

And since I honestly don't give a damn about making my pet's battle stats line up with their character (much; I do try to hold it to their element, but honestly, most of the way my pets would fight if they do don't match any existing traits), if I find something that would fit them but is restricted, I know my instinct is to just go "Screw it" and figure out a different trait. I've long since stopped worrying about passive ones, since I'll play my character however I want regardless.

I'm so cool (too bad I'm a loser).
I'm so smart (too bad I can't get anything figured out)!
I'm so brave (too bad I'm a baby).
I'm so fly
That's probably why it feels just like I'm falling for the first time!

I'm so green (it's really amazing).
I'm so clean (too bad I can't get all the dirt off of me)!
I'm so sane (It's driving me crazy)!
It's so strange
I can't believe I'm falling for the first time!

Critters -Ramblings - Single & Looking -Majikul Wishlist -This Stuff's Important

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Re: * New Traits

Postby Shieba » 06/12/2011 3:13 AM

I actually remember being scared, too, until Shrewdie told me that it's Kodai's job and I should apply freely. o3o But now, with the new system, it's easier and okay, isn't it? I just checked and there are 24 people who applied for Traits so far, which is, given our small community, quite a bit, so I don't think people have a problem there anymore and not everyone goes "Screw it". I think this might be a bit of your personal problem? It sounds to me like you want as little hassle with Traits as possible because you don't like them and therefore try to get rid of restriction...
But yes, the speed is what breaks the system a bit still. At least there are mods offering to check right before tournaments, though. That's something, after all...I think.



I know my dreams are made of you
Of you and only for you
Your ocean pulls me under
Your voice tears me asunder
Love me before the last petal falls






However cold the wind and rain
I'll be there to ease your pain
However cruel the mirrors of sin
Remember beauty is found within




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Re: * New Traits

Postby Freezair » 06/12/2011 3:42 AM

I do want hassle-free traiting, and not just because of some "personal thing."  Because our staff is tiny as it is, and the more things heaped onto them, the less likely they are to be able to complete all of them in a timely manner to the best of their abilities, and that's more inconvenient for... everybody, really. We don't get stuff on time, and they have to waste time doing minutae. It's also kind of newbie-unfriendly. I've actually tried to introduce three or four people* to this site, and all of them balked when I explained the Restricted Traits system. In particular, the D&D-knowing guy compared it to a hundred-person campaign with a single DM. And since I know you hate having to redo your pen, it's not fun having to ask for "more specific" traits on 100-plus pets. That's the kind of thing I would quickly run into if I were being more particular about traits, which is why I'm glad they're optional.

And as I alluded to, it makes it more difficult to get exactly the right traits for certain pets. It's like having to have somebody approve your character idea. Bleh. :P

(Oh, and in case you were wondering who the four people were: My sister [who actually had an account here briefly, but stopped and didn't want to come back after I'd explained the new traits and things], my friend Kira, one of my RL friends who's the D&D guy, and an old, old Internet buddy of mine who has so many usernames I just call him by his real name. Which I won't name here because I don't think he'd want me to.)

I'm so cool (too bad I'm a loser).
I'm so smart (too bad I can't get anything figured out)!
I'm so brave (too bad I'm a baby).
I'm so fly
That's probably why it feels just like I'm falling for the first time!

I'm so green (it's really amazing).
I'm so clean (too bad I can't get all the dirt off of me)!
I'm so sane (It's driving me crazy)!
It's so strange
I can't believe I'm falling for the first time!

Critters -Ramblings - Single & Looking -Majikul Wishlist -This Stuff's Important

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Re: * New Traits

Postby Shieba » 06/12/2011 3:49 AM

As you said - it's optional. And I don't get what's so scary with the restricted Traits. When I pick battle-Traits, I need around 10 minutes, which include picking six ones and writing reasons for any restricted ones. If Traits are so scary and people only want battle Traits, well, 10 minutes isn't really the world. Granted, reading through them all takes some time at first, but I actually liked that. I love stats and Traits and things. There are people like me, too. D8 Though even I wish we would stop adding more all the time so I could finally be done with my pen. Just...no less, either.

I agree it's like approving a character idea, but it's for reasons of fairness, so...I don't mind. And I know Kodai likes it. At least she keeps telling me how much she likes her Traits and stats, so I don't think she minds doing it.



I know my dreams are made of you
Of you and only for you
Your ocean pulls me under
Your voice tears me asunder
Love me before the last petal falls






However cold the wind and rain
I'll be there to ease your pain
However cruel the mirrors of sin
Remember beauty is found within




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Re: * New Traits

Postby Freezair » 06/12/2011 4:10 AM

And I guess that's just going to be our trademark Differences of Opinion at work, because I dislike having to do a whole bunch of different things to get my pen in order, and mostly I just want to RP my pets. You can accuse me of having a "personal thing," but I think you have no less of a vested interest in keeping the stats the same. You have an obvious dislike of having to adjust your pen, after all. ;P Isn't it ultimately that we both like and dislike different things?

I mean, to me, personally, having to work to earn a more powerful Trait would be a lot more satisfying than just asking for it, but obviously you disagree, so, waddiyagonnado?

I'm so cool (too bad I'm a loser).
I'm so smart (too bad I can't get anything figured out)!
I'm so brave (too bad I'm a baby).
I'm so fly
That's probably why it feels just like I'm falling for the first time!

I'm so green (it's really amazing).
I'm so clean (too bad I can't get all the dirt off of me)!
I'm so sane (It's driving me crazy)!
It's so strange
I can't believe I'm falling for the first time!

Critters -Ramblings - Single & Looking -Majikul Wishlist -This Stuff's Important

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Re: * New Traits

Postby Shieba » 06/12/2011 4:30 AM

You're right, I might have a personal interest, too, but I also feel like a scaled system would be a step back into the Rightousness/Darkness area we thankfully left behind. In the end, Kodai must decide what she wants to do and, as we always so wonderfully do (XP), we have both shown pro and contra for the whole thing. I for one am absolutely pleased with earning just my stats by leveling and keeping Traits as personality-friendly as possible.

As a maybe final word in this conversation until Kodai posts the next time: I absolutely agree with you on the point of Shrine Trait removals from color/racial Traits. These are meant to be a) given out by gods and b) dependant on high stats. Level 1 pet have none of this, so they shouldn't have them at all.
As for restricted Traits, I'm indifferent. I don't mind them, but if their removal gets you to be satisfied and drop the scaling issue, I'm not gonna disagree there. Even though it would mean redoing my pen again. ;P



I know my dreams are made of you
Of you and only for you
Your ocean pulls me under
Your voice tears me asunder
Love me before the last petal falls






However cold the wind and rain
I'll be there to ease your pain
However cruel the mirrors of sin
Remember beauty is found within




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Re: * New Traits

Postby GrayGriffin » 06/12/2011 10:48 PM

Well, what if those pets are rather rare, maybe only being given out as special prizes? Then I think they could have special traits, to add to their desirability, instead of just being desired because they were retired/limited?
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You're my crystal and clover
All of me
Honestly
Is dedicated to hold you

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What would you do if I stole you tonight? (Ahh ahh)
Why waste time? (Ahh ahh)

'Cause the world goes on without us
It doesn't matter what we do
All silhouettes with no regrets
When I'm melting into you
'Cause I belong in your arms
I belong in your arms

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Re: * New Traits

Postby Freezair » 06/12/2011 11:47 PM

You mean like Alonia pets? I suppose I could see that... But for normal pets, including Lucain/Paragon, I'd recommend it anyway. Mostly because yes, we have seen an awful lot of Lucain in tournaments due to Spiked Body and such...

I'm so cool (too bad I'm a loser).
I'm so smart (too bad I can't get anything figured out)!
I'm so brave (too bad I'm a baby).
I'm so fly
That's probably why it feels just like I'm falling for the first time!

I'm so green (it's really amazing).
I'm so clean (too bad I can't get all the dirt off of me)!
I'm so sane (It's driving me crazy)!
It's so strange
I can't believe I'm falling for the first time!

Critters -Ramblings - Single & Looking -Majikul Wishlist -This Stuff's Important

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Re: * New Traits

Postby Azura Rayume » 06/13/2011 1:18 AM

I understand why (physically) the Lucain comes with Spiked Body, but I don't like the trait being standard. Because what if you have a Lucain like my Arthur who rarely if ever fights in his animal form? His armor doesn't have spikes, so Spiked Body doesn't make sense for him. I know there are quite a few people whose 'cains and 'gons don't fit the "breed standard" when fighting. o3o



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Re: * New Traits

Postby Shieba » 06/13/2011 1:43 AM

Lucain and Spiked Body is nonsense to me. Hunters, yes. Lusikross, yes. But Lucain? Attacking them by jumping on their back and impaling yourself is stupid. They can't use the wingblades to attack either because they're on their back. You can just smack them one on the face without ever risking getting hurt by them.



I know my dreams are made of you
Of you and only for you
Your ocean pulls me under
Your voice tears me asunder
Love me before the last petal falls






However cold the wind and rain
I'll be there to ease your pain
However cruel the mirrors of sin
Remember beauty is found within




*~*~*Pen*~*~*Wishlist*~*~*Imp. Docs*~*~*
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