[Jaykobell]

When the Kuhna system was established, we released a new feature in the breeding area: a place wher you could trade a breeding key in exchange for a Kuhna Key. Those who couldn't be online for the release or who couldn't save up the money could still have a hand in breeding if they had another key with no inspiration behind it.

I would like to expand it. Please give me your suggestions and what you would like to see done with the Bureau. Some points:

-Ability to exchange for other key types besides Kuhnas;
-How to moderate exchanges between exchanging and releases? To avoid members hoarding keys, but also to avoid users exchanging types only to buy it again during the release, etc;

Also, how about a separate topic that would be... more of a black market?

-Would be located somewhere shady, like the Slums;
-Would offer rare and desirable items, but at a ridiculous price: maybe 3 or 4 times? So that only those desperate would actually consider buying;
-Would stock keys, potions, maybe even other things;
-Could accept pets as payment? Pets would be basically given to the staff team to use in raffles or prizes in the Contest area;
-Could do many other shady things for all people to enjoy?

Please discuss. Mods are also welcome. Stir some discussion: I would like to know how we could work on this/these features TOGETHER as a COMMUNITY.

Mods do not know about this. Please discuss freely. None of this has been set in stone or even brought up with staff. This is your chance to participate in a feature, and even maybe a future one (black market).

[Shieba]

- I like the idea of swapping different key types, though I feel like you shouldn't be able to swap a Kuhna key for a Soveris/Gon/Cain one, simply because of how much more work the mods have to do to make those kind of babies instead of rolling for Kuhnas. I feel like the Kuhna keys would probably get abused as a source of getting the more desireable keys otherwise and Kuhna breeding numbers would dwindle.

- Only let users exchange Gon/Cain/Soveris keys for a type of key they don't own yet. I'm not sure if that would help much with the hoarding, but at least this will help avoid avoiding users to swap for a specific type of key and hoard that to make them able to buy more of the other two kinds.

- Only let people swap for keys if they have pets of that kind (probably only applying for Soveris at this point).

For the black market:

- I like the idea, but seeing as keys go for 25+ GT in the advertise forum sometimes, I have honest doubt that four times the price would scare anyone away from buying on. In fact, they'll see the same run they see in the Breeding Facility, I think.

- Maybe there could be some kind of grab bag thing as a KS sink? Pay a fixed price or a pet, have a mod roll a dice and see what you get. From the common LLP to a super-rare Fortuna Strain/BBv2, all items are possible. Or some lottery thing - a shady guy offering a key for a sum of KS, but you can't see what kind of key it is. Will you get a breeding key for one of the species or will you get a useless key? Again, up to the dice.

- Paying with pets sounds definitely interesting. I approve of that.

- Maybe there could be a certain kind of pet (maybe a Kuhna?) that could be only gotten from the Black Market?

[Remedy]

I really like this idea!  I agree with Shieba in that I think it would be best if users were only allowed to swap for a key type they don't have.  That way there won't be a ridiculous boom of Paragon or Lucain if someone who hoards keys switched all their keys of one type to the other.  Also it would prevent the hoarding problem, as people might be inspired to rid their keys sooner so they can swap again.  

I also really like Shieba's idea of a grab bag/lottery.  With the shady environment I think it should be a realistic chance of getting completely ripped off.  

I'd gladly volunteer to help organize or even run either of these shops, so the mods won't get bogged down with even more work.  I know users in the past haven't followed through with their duties, but I can assure you I'd do the job to the best of my ability. :3

[Jaykobell]

Thank you for your feedback, Shieba. I do appreciate everyone who will bother to post here.

I'll address your points one by one:

-it's a considerate point, but I don't think we need to restrict this. Kuhnas do take little time to roll, but then it's not fair to restrict people. We do understand the other species are more desirable. Unless the other Mods think it would be a good idea, I think we can afford to let users trade Kuhna Keys for other types. After all, they could only trade one for one, so it wouldn't flood the market too much.

-hmm, letting users swap only for keys they don't have is a possibility. Though I'm a bit conflicted, since sometimes some people have a lot of focus on one species, such as how I don't bother breeding Cain and basically only Gon and Kuhnas. But then, people could always offer to trade key types afterward, although it's a hassle. I'd definitely like people to tell me what they think about this particular point.

-agreed on people swapping only for keys of species they have.

Black Market:

-Advertise =/= Actual value. Plus, I'm thinking of this only as a matter of KS prices. If people would also like GT, we could definitely include them. The difference between advertise and the black market would be that you wouldn't have to fight anyone for the keys. I doubt everyone would jump at the opportunity for a key at a price of like... 400KS. If not more. I was thinking of having them be an unlimited stock, but at a very high price. So would you rather pay so much more but have it now, or would you rather wait and pay the original price?

Price ranges are also welcomed.

-I like the idea of a grab bag, but I'm not sure how popular it would be. My understanding is that the Evelon community is very nervous about gambles such as this. When we came up with the Thanks for Life Day events, no one, basically, participated in the dangerous topic. People are afraid to spend resources for things they may not need and/or want.

I like the idea; could people tell me what they would be willing to gamble for this? It's pointless to include it if it doesn't bring in any customers.

-I like the idea of an exclusive pet. Perhaps rarer pets could show up? Like war pets or livestream pets? How about custom coupons (would have to be DISCUSSED FIRST so don't take this as 110% going to happen). This could allow people to get customs without having to wait for a sale.

How about the opportunity for NEW MEMBERS to obtain a custom for FREE? They could choose between a Cain, Paragon or Soveris. This would allow them to get started and have a custom of their own. I would even dare say... maybe even bundled with a Key? Breeding is a big feature of the site: perhaps they could exchange their 100KS starter for a bundle of a custom + key of their choice?

I might hold off on replying for a bit to try to let people post. I want feedback for this, so I don't want people to think I've already made decisions and choices. Again, the other mods haven't even seen this yet.

[Shieba]

Addressing only black market things now since I think more input from others about the key swap is needed and I have nothing new to say there:

- For 400KS? I would buy a million keys, honestly. (Unless we would only be allowed to buy one of each kind and stuff. Then I would obviously only buy one for each species lol). That's 80 posts. If I make a crappy training RP, I can earn that much in 45 minutes. Everything under 1500KS is far too easy to earn, in my opinion. But that's me and I always wrote a lot very fast.

- I participated in the Thanks for Life Day dangerous event and so did many others? I remember FireHeart, Sori, Krypto, Elektra and many others in the thread I was in. Also that event gave you no idea what specifically you could lose - I lost a Clockwork Fellox, ugh - while I think the grab bag would have a fixed cost, so you would know in advance what you lose; you just don't know what you win. That's different from the event where you didn't even know if you would win or lose at all. Also losing a pet =/= getting nothing, like in the lottery thing. But indeed, more feedback from others would be needed there.

- I like the idea of war pets showing up a lot. Maybe wild pets, too? Custom coupons would be awesome, too, if you mod guys would be able to handle the possible workload.

- However, as for new members getting a custom and a key for free? I'd say no to that. Not because I don't want to help newbies to start out, but simply because there is so much room for abuse there, especially with the keys. Swapping 100KS for a key which can be sold in the Advertise section for so much more? And what if a user gets a friend to join just for that offer? Have the friend sign up and get the stuff, then have the friend drop off of Evelon a week later. There is a LOT of room for abuse. Also our newbies vanish so fast that I feel like the mods would create many customs which would then rot on dead accounts that it's sad. If we do something for newbies, I would rather say it should be something like... letting them exchange, if they want, their 100KS for an existing pet. If people can pay on the black market with pets, there could be a section where maybe the breedables go and a newbie would be allowed to pick one from there in exchange for their 100KS. That would be the much safer choice, I think.

[Sarah]

Shady key swap:
I really like the idea of having the key swap be put into effect. I agree with Shieba, I think it would be best if users were only allowed to swap for a key type they don't have. In a way that they couldn’t ‘cheat the system’ by dragging all of their keys into another species in order to buy more of the previous and so that once they get the key they want they might be more inclined to use it so that they can get another for the same species. Which seems like a long process to me but it would also get rid of hoards because people will be more likely to use the key instead of just moving their hoard over to another species.

I sort of agree that people should only be allowed to swap into keys they have pets for, but when regular key sales come out or when there are raffles I know there are users who rent the species they are trying for. I think that would be okay if someone who doesn’t have paragon but they want to do a paragon breeding and have a Lucian key to swap should be able to swap as long as they prove they have rentals in order to use. I also think that with that there should be the upheld expectation that they are going to use they key soonish. That way they aren’t just swapping in order to get more lucain keys.

Black market:
I really like the idea of having the black market be a gamble. It’s how I imagine the real black market is and it makes people who have less still have the same chance as people who have more, but it also doesn’t punish people who do have more at the same time.

For 400 ks I’d jump on that deal so fast but I really really don’t like the idea of saving up 1,500 ks either. At that point it’d be more likely to get a key when they come from the breeding center. However I do like the idea that there would be a place that keys were a constant opportunity especially for people who have missed the regular sale or raffle. I do think that the keys on the black market should be for those willing to part with a lot and/or put in a lot of work and effort in order to obtain. For those who don’t want to put in the work I think that ‘a shady guy offering a key for a sum of KS, but you can't see what kind of key it is’ is a brilliant idea. I really love the idea of placing down an affordable but obviously higher priced sum of ks down and not know if it’ll pay off or not. I’d participate in that honestly probably as often as I had the ks for it though I realize other might be turned away by it.

I really really wouldn’t like to see goddess tears in the black market. It gives off the feel of a site that rewards only those who spend real money, and I don’t think that that is what Evelon is really about especially considering that everything except customs cost only ks.

To me pets that aren’t custom have very little value so I would be willing to part ways with more of my non-custom pets but there would be very very little chance that I’d ever gamble a custom without knowing for sure what I’d get in return. So for that I’d just stay away from anything offering ‘stuff’ in exchange for custom pets.

I think that black market exclusive pets would be really interesting. Especially since there are quite a few pets from past years that I’d like to get but aren’t actively available in trades. Something like custom coupons would be cool but just straight up customs I don’t think would be a very good idea. For me customs and randoms alike are something really special to be because they cost real money. I don’t have a lot of money often so every one of my customs I value probably more than I should. So the idea of just throwing something into a pot and getting a custom really diminishes that value of earned money spent.

I agree with Shieba 100% when it comes to the newbie thing. There are far too many people who sign up and never come back and I don’t think giving away free customs will make them stay any longer. Setting up a thing where newbies can trade in their 100 ks for an existing custom would at least make them explore one part of the site and then little effort would be wasted if they did leave. The person who originally lost the custom shouldn’t feel like they lost anything because they were willing to give up the pet and then no one would have to struggle over seeing a new pet that they may really want rot away and become unobtainable.

[Remedy]

Just popping back in to say I love the idea of an inventory of traded/donated pets where new users might go to trade in their 100 KS.  I even have quite a few pets that I'd gladly donate to that particular cause.
Additionally, black market exclusive pets have me envisioning tom cat Kuhnas and scruffy, wild looking Sahounds of some sort.  Like you go to make a trade but on your way see a starving animal and stop to give it a bit of food.  Then it either bites you/runs away or you get stuck with it following you around.  Just a small possibility of a "wild urban animal" interaction such as this might incite users to role play in the black market scene more often.  I dunno, just an idea; that might not be what y'all had in mind.

[Thunder]

Bureau:

- I don't see a need to limit swapping Kuhna keys for the other keys. At this point, you can do so many things with Kuhnas that I don' t really see them as "less desirable" as other breedables.

-I agree with the notion that users should be able to exchange whatever key for whatever key as long as 1) they own the species of the key they're getting and 2) as mentioned, they can only switch for a key type they don't have.

Black Market:

- Swapping pets for stuff, especially if the pets go back into the system to be used as prizes for other events, is a really interesting idea that I like. I do agree that

- Exclusive pets and rarer pets would be awesome and would fit in perfectly with the concept of a black market.

- I like the grab bag idea as well, as long as people know how much they have to pay for one/have control over what they exchange for one. I think making this a KS purchase would be the best way to go since it can be hard to place concrete values on pets to exchange for this.

- For the newbie thing, maybe we can say something like if you have made x posts on the forum, you can redeem a free custom +  key? Of course this doesn't stop people from just doing the posts in somewhere like the forum games, but it may serve as a bit of a control to make sure that the newbies who utilize the service won't be people who just disappear soon after joining. I don't see how selling the keys in Advertise for more money could be considered abuse on the newbies' part when so many established users do that exact same thing already. And if the customs rot, eh, then they rot. That's another thing we already have. Sara raised a good point though; I don't think giving newbies free customs/keys would necessarily encourage them to stay.

[ToxicShadow]

Posting first my thoughts regarding Key Swapping, as a lot of users have posted in between when I started typing, so I don't want to miss replying to something about it while I work on my thoughts regarding the Black Market idea.

Key Swap:

+ Stating that I definitely support the idea of the Key Swap Bureau existing all the time, with the ability to swap for all key types.

+ I agree that you are only able to swap if you own (or have a proven rental contract) for the species that you are trying to get a key for.

+ I don't feel that we should be too limited in what keys we swap for what keys. Although, Kuhna keys costs 40 KS less than the others, so I wonder if there would be a way to balance out the pricing difference? Either limit how many Kuhna Keys you can swap in a set amount of time, or have users pay an additional 40 KS along with it for the other keys? I don't see this as completely necessary, as it is more of a passing thought then a pressing issue, but I thought I'd mention it.

+ I do not agree with only swapping for keys that you do not have, because there are users such as myself that am primarily interested in breeding certain species over others (for example: I already have a Lucain A licence, so breeding them are less of a priority to me). Does that mean I don't breed Lucain at all? Of course not, I love my Lucain characters and still do breedings for plots or to make pretty babies, but I do want to breed more Paragon than Lucain, over all. (And, yes, I am aware that I have a hoard of 'gon keys. Problem is, I have been holding onto some keys for very specific plot breedings with other users, that can not be done until a certain area in a plot is a reached. Getting penalized for that would be awful.) Since we can always still swap keys with other users in trade topics sort of freely, anyway, I figure why make it a hassle and not include freely swapping in the Bureau?

+ I do have an alternative suggestion for making swap limitations, however. How about each user can only swap keys so many times in a month? And I don't mean 30 days, because then someone would have to double check and count days, but literally each month? If you don't choose to swap at all in one month, your loss, the chances don't roll over to the next month. To keep things fair, I would suggest no more than four swaps per month, but maybe even less can be considered if others deem it appropriate, given that we don't usually have more than one or maybe two key releases in a month anyway. Perhaps only two swaps per month would be more appropriate.

[Kyrit]

Free custom+key for newbies:
So I'd like to point out... that since you're mentioning breedable customs, this would have to be something run by Baal for approval. The breedables (Kuhna excluded) are how she gets a bit of income. As such she might not enjoy us giving them out to free to every user that joins. She might like the idea though. Either way, this should be run by her for approval.

Unlimited keys in black market:
If there isn't a set stock of keys in the blackmarkets I would suggest... at least making it to where users can only buy one of each type of key every so often. I'm not suggesting only if they don't have a key of that type, as a self-breeding can honestly be finished in a day, they go back, repeat. I'm not saying this would happen for sure, but as one of the ones working on babies it'd definitely bog me down if someone could use the back market to just spam breeding constantly. So yeah. I'd definitely like to see a time limit on how often you can buy the keys if there is an unlimited stock.


Aside from that, I am reading the topic. I'll continue to give input where I feel it's needed.

[ToxicShadow]

And my thoughts about the Black Market, hopefully I didn't miss anything:

+ I really like the idea of having a Grab Bag for a set amount of KS or value. Its more like a fun gamble, as long as you are aware of exactly what you are losing in exchange for the gamble. (I didn't take part in the Thanks for Life Day events because I did not know what I could lose, which is not something I am comfortable with, even if I could have won great prizes. Had I known what I would lose, specifically, I would have been all for it.)

+ Honestly, I don't even think four times the KS amount would deter users from buying a ton of breeding Keys, if they were unlimited. When a user can generally BIN a single Paragon or Lucain for an average of 400 KS (or even more) in trading threads, why would they not go for breeding keys, when it guarantees more than one in return for the KS given? I love the idea of Breeding Keys being available, but I think it would have to be limited in a way similar to what I suggested for the Bureau. (Each user may only buy so many from the Black Market a month. Maybe two, since there is a two week time limit on breedings, so two seems reasonable?)

+ I agree with having rarer or Black Market Exclusive pets available within it. Maybe even custom pets or coupons.

+ Regarding customs for newbies, I like the idea, but I also don't. There is honestly no telling if a user would even stay after receiving a custom pet, but I think it would help new users get started. The only way I think I could be happy with this is if there was an included stipulation. Such as, if you become inactive for X amount of time (maybe three months of no posting, anywhere, or no log ins), you automatically lose the essentially free custom, which cannot be given back to you if you return? Lost customs could be auctioned off, used as prizes, Morey pets, and so forth.

Though, users getting started could also benefit from starting off with more than 100 KS, as an alternative to customs? (We started off with 100 KS when it was 1 KS per roleplay post, back in the day, but the starter KS amount hasn't changed even thought he amount of KS per post has. So I think upping the starter amount is actually long passed due.)

Or, just as well, maybe there could be more ways to earn a custom breedable pet, aside from A Licences or contest prizes? Which could given users motivation to complete these tasks? Like, post so many roleplay posts? The number for that would obviously have to be very large, but it would inspire users to roleplay, and it is technically a "free custom." (Even old users could participate, as only posts made after the event was announced would count toward the award?)

Or new users can order ONE custom with KS, BUT its more than the starting amount of KS, so they actually have to roleplay to earn it first?

(Sorry that these ideas strayed from the topic at hand, but they came to mind just now, so I thought I would voice them.)

+ An idea that hasn't been suggested for the Black Market yet:

Perhaps, every now and then, the Black Market can be looking for an item or pet specifically, which they give something of higher value in exchange for, or something similar? This could change frequently, or have more than one specific thing up, to keep things interesting.

Examples:
The Black Market wants 5 Lovey Love Potions. So up to five different users can exchange a Lovey Love Potion for a Generative Draught.

The Black Market wants 2 female Lucain. So two users then have a chance to exchange ANY female Lucain for male Lucain. (Those received can be preset male Lucain that got traded into the prize stash previously, premade customs, or chances at customs, anything.)

The Black Market wants a Sulkuhna. In exchange, the user could have a choice of one out of five rarer bred Kuhnas.

And so forth. The items/pets don't even have to be super related. Exchange an Albino Drakel for a Kuhna. A potion for a breeding key, and so on. KS could also be some of the things given in exchange.

Obviously, each user could only make one exchange, to keep things fair, during each exchange or set of exchanges?

[Jaykobell]

I am on the road home and should be there in roughly four hours. I am reading this topic and while I do have some points to make, I will keep the meat of my thoughts for when I have an actualy keyboard to type with and once I've gathered all my thoughts.

But I am reading and I am happy to see people discuss and participate. Even those of you who are quietly watching and agreeing with these points, please post even just to say that. It's nice and pleasing to see people agree.

The only thing I will say for now: Kyrit, I understand some things may need to get approved by Baal. Quite honestly, though, I doubt giving someone one unique custom would honestly deteriorate the states of her sales: which, let's admit it, do not happen often at all. A single user can have many customs, and many sites, like Flight Rising, offer the ability to get one free custom when you join. In that aspect, those who are afraid of abuse: there are ways we can control these things. I will explain my personal thoughts later, again once I am back home and settled back in.

[Azura Rayume]

So many words, homg. Okay.

Key Swap

I liked the idea of this from the beginning and had been wondering if it would be expanded to include trading for the other keys. So long as it was well-regulated and not easily abused (such as people getting several Kuhna keys just to trade for a bunch of more valuable keys all at once), I would have no issue with it being open to other kinds of keys and at times other than key sales. I know that, for example, people could manage to snag a Lucain key only to have their planned breeding fall through and not want to use it anymore; if they could trade it for a Paragon key, which they have a more immediate use for, it could stop some of the key hoarding.

Shady Slums

I really, really like this. A lot. A few things.
- Different shopkeepers for different sections. Possibly different threads all linked together if that would be more helpful in keeping things straight. This is also in sections for that purpose.
Pets:
- Exclusive pets that would make sense for the Black Market and the Slums: toxic Snickies, Baskervilles, fierce bruiser beasts, etc.
- Pets from previous events (war is the only thing that really comes to mind)
- The idea of trading specific pets for specific rewards is really great to me. We all have those pets we can't seem to do anything with and can't sell to save our lives. If we could trade those for something we're more likely to use, well, I'm all for it.
Items:
- Keys if they can be regulated well with a limit on sales.
- A blind bag (kind of like how some dealers at cons put stuff they can't sell in a bag and mark it down) that costs less than the items might normally. Chance at a potion, key, BB, coupon for discount in a particular shop, or even an item that's not necessarily valuable but can't be obtained any other way. The last item would be seen as a "junk" prize by some people, but it could tie into the idea of collectible items brought up by RE2 or be an item asked for in exchange for more useful things in the item-for-item exchanges.
- What if we could have this guy sell Goddess Tears? It's a form of currency, after all. The exchange rate could be pretty high, but people could use it to get a few here and there, maybe building up enough over time to get something pretty nice.
Newbies:
- I love the idea of giving new people some incentive to stick around. That being said, I'm not wholly in favor of simply giving them a custom right off the bat. Maybe after they reach a certain number of posts or participate in a couple of RPs, they could be contacted by someone from the Black Market saying they were a "promising new customer" and give them a coupon for a very discounted "one-time offer" for a very cheap custom.

I think that's everything? I dunno. This topic is getting long, but I like it a lot.

[Thunder]

"Or new users can order ONE custom with KS, BUT its more than the starting amount of KS, so they actually have to roleplay to earn it first?"

"Perhaps, every now and then, the Black Market can be looking for an item or pet specifically, which they give something of higher value in exchange for, or something similar? This could change frequently, or have more than one specific thing up, to keep things interesting."

^ I really like these two ideas~

[Remedy]

I like the ability to exchange Keys for Keys with the following requirements included:
-A user may only swap a key for one they do not already own.
-A user must own at least one pet of the species they’re swapping for.
-A user must pay a set transaction fee (KS?) for the swapping process, meaning they would not simply be trading a key for a key, but a key + a sum of KS for a key they feel they need more.   This might encourage users to really put thought into the keys they’re considering trading for.

I love the idea of a black market, mostly because it holds so much roleplay potential.  I think instead of someone simply posting one post saying “I would like this and this,” they should be required to go on some kind of multiple post journey to really test the limits of their dedication.  

For example, a shady figure stands on the street corner.  The user approaches him and asks for information regarding a man known as “The Locksmith”.  The shady figure (perhaps after a small amount of bribery?) gives directions as well as the knowledge of a code word needed to meet said man.  (The code word changes each time, requiring each user to post an interaction with this man.)  The user then follows said direction, approaches a door and gives the code word.  Que next post where they enter into a dimly lit room and are led to a desk, on the other side of which is a man cloaked in black holding a ring of many keys.  Then the man makes an offer, asking for <insert KS amount> in return for a random key off of the ring in his hand.  Etc, etc.  I feel this would make the process more interactive and, like the black market is, more complicated than a “legal” transaction in a marketplace shop.

This stems from the idea of a user exchanging some amount of KS for an unknown key.  They’ll either get a breeding key of some sort, or they’ll get a rusty key that doesn’t seem to fit any known locks.  The rusty key, though useless, can be kept as a collectable, black market-related item.  Some users might actually be interested in collecting one just for the sake of collecting one.  XD  I think this option would be better than straight up selling breeding keys for a fixed amount of KS.  

Paying with pets is also a great option.  There might not exactly be a set price that each pet is worth, but would be a little more sporadic depending on the desires of the black market dealer.  Like this idea of Toxic's:

Perhaps, every now and then, the Black Market can be looking for an item or pet specifically, which they give something of higher value in exchange for, or something similar? This could change frequently, or have more than one specific thing up, to keep things interesting.