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What should happen with the layout of the ownership records for bred pets?

Go ahead and change them!
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44%
Leave them as they are.
3
19%
I don't mind, either way is fine.
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Total votes : 16

Layout For Bred Lucain/Paragon/Soveris Ownership Records

Postby ToxicShadow » 06/11/2016 3:34 AM

For a little while now, I have been debating changing the set up for the ownership records of bred Lucain/Paragon/Soveris.

More specifically, I have been considering moving the Hall of Records threads for each species into the ownership records and recording the owners of each bred pet in the same fashion that the bred Kuhna ownership records are kept.

Of course, as this affects the users, I figured it best to let you all decide.

Pros of changing it:
+ The lists which records bred pets, both the Hall of Records and Ownership Records, will be condensed into one. (And this makes it so that staff only has to add the pets to one thread instead of two when delivering babies from the Nursery.)
+ Bred males and females of the same species will be listed in a single thread.
+ Users would be able to see which user currently has ownership of offspring from any of their specific breedings at a glance.
+ Will likely prevent my browser from crashing while editing bred ownership records, by limiting the number of images in each post.

Cons of changing it:
+ The pets owned by each user will no longer be all grouped together.
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Re: Layout For Bred Lucain/Paragon/Soveris Ownership Records

Postby Freezair » 06/12/2016 2:41 AM

First off, let me say that I am very in favor of moving the Halls of Records to Ownership Records. It always seemed a little odd to me that such official document-y threads were in the breeder's listings instead of with the other documents, and that one seems like a no-brainer to me.

But on the topic of redoing the threads...

I do know of one other con to them, and it IS one that gives me pause. Mainly, the load times. It seems like there would be a LOT more images in each thread since several Lucain would be posted multiple times instead of only needing each image once, which could lead to increased load for those just wanting to check ownership. I have a fairly good connection, and I still try to avoid going into the records unless I absolutely need to, since it tends to be very slow. If I'm somewhere with a slow connection, it gets worse. Plus, it seems like it would be a bit strange if the custom ownership records and the bred ownership records were so different.

Which is not to say I don't see the benefits of this new system--being able to know at a glance who owns the offspring of my pets would be a huge help! But man, dat load tho.

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Re: Layout For Bred Lucain/Paragon/Soveris Ownership Records

Postby Thunder » 06/12/2016 5:45 AM

As far as load times are concerned, I think my own laptop is just as slow loading breeding records as it is ownership records, so idk xD That's probably going to be really different by person. Otherwise I'd be fine with changing the threads since it would save some time in the long run.
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Re: Layout For Bred Lucain/Paragon/Soveris Ownership Records

Postby ToxicShadow » 06/12/2016 2:27 PM

Aaah, yes, load times. To be perfectly honest, that didn't occur to me at all, since my load times are about the same for each thread. So thank you for pointing it out! Although images are repeated in the Breeding Hall of Records, once those images have loaded once, that image is loaded all throughout the thread, at least for me. So, yes, it would be more image heavy, but I don't think it would be a drastic difference.

Turning the Hall of Records into official ownership threads also gives us the ability to regulate just how many pets are listed on each page, by limiting how many breedings are listed in each post. The Bred Kuhna Records currently lists 50 breedings in each post. However, at least in the Lucain Hall of Records, there isn't even 50 listed in each. (Each post seems to have somewhere around 40, give our take.) So if it became an official ownership list, then I could limit it to 25, 30, 35, etc breedings in each post. In the end, it would be a list with more than one page, but I don't see that as too much of a problem.
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Re: Layout For Bred Lucain/Paragon/Soveris Ownership Records

Postby Freezair » 06/12/2016 2:51 PM

As an experiment, I decided to clear my cache and see how long each thread took to load. This is what I got:

Breeding records: about 50 sec for about 108 MB of data

Bred Male Lucain ownership list: About 15 sec for about 40 MB of data

The consolidation of the genders seems like it'd also increase the load times fairly significantly. x.x Unless the whole thing went multi-forum-page (like, more than 15 posts), but that seems like it could also be tricky.

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That's probably why it feels just like I'm falling for the first time!

I'm so green (it's really amazing).
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Re: Layout For Bred Lucain/Paragon/Soveris Ownership Records

Postby Moofius » 06/13/2016 3:19 AM

I personally like the idea of changing it, but I also don't care if the load time is a little longer, so if that's a major concern for a lot of people then I think it's important to consider.

I do like to keep track of who owns my babies, and that's IMPOSSIBLE unless you're stalking the trade threads since searching would require actually scrolling through the ownership thread. If it's changed I could just search my own breedings and BAM! Instant answer (after loading the big page).

Could we even make the batches like... 10 breedings per post? Then there'd be a lot less to go through. Especially if we added litter numbers, like the kuhna have. Then you could get the litter number (when you get your letter with your babies in them?) and on the first page it could show litter #s ___ to ___ on page 1, etc. etc. That could solve the load time in that, you'd only have to load the page you know your litter to be on.

Maybe? Or maybe I am not understanding the problem.
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Re: Layout For Bred Lucain/Paragon/Soveris Ownership Records

Postby ToxicShadow » 06/13/2016 4:05 AM

I wrote this prior to Moofius posting, so keep that in mind, but the idea she mentioned is basically what I had in mind.

According to your experiment, there is a 35 second difference between the Hall of Records and the single Male Lucain Ownership list, but that is still under a minute in load times. To be perfectly honest, I don't see that as a drastic difference. Of course, to each their own. I don't see it as a big issue, that would at least outweigh the Pros, but I suppose others may not feel that way. (Although, so far, it seems that the majority would like the change or don't mind what happens, one way or the other.)

Some other things to consider, at least from my point of veiw:

When I have to add new babies to records when sending them out from the Nursery, I open all three pages in succession/at the same time. The Hall of Records, Bred Males, and Bred Females. Assuming Bred females has about the same amount of images, it would have roughly the same load time. So 50 + 15 + 15 = 80 seconds. I have to add babies both to the Hall of Records and to their respective ownership records.

When processing trades, I open Bred Males and Bred Females at the same time. So 30 seconds.

With what I was saying before, how each post would have less breedings listed in each one than is currently listed in the Hall of Records (I was thinking 25 breedings per post.) So I did some math.

Using the average of 3 babies per litter + 2 parents, I will be multiplying by 5.
25 breedings x 5 images = 125
125 x 15 posts per page = 1875
So a total of about 1875 images would be included on one page.

Currently, there are an average of 42 breedings per post in the Hall of Records. Using 5 again:
42 breedings x 5 images = 210
210 x the current 10 posts = 3150
There are currently about 3150 images listed in the Hall of Records, and we still have five more posts to go before it goes to a second page.

That said, each page would load significantly faster than the current Hall of Records, with less images, if I went with having more than one page.

I definitely plan to number each litter, and I can even link each page or post in the first post of the thread, for easy navigation, if need be.

+++

And I feel like I should explain what happens when I try to update the bred Lucain records, currently, with how they are set up. For me, it ended up being the factor that made me absolutely desire change. I mentioned it as Pro: "Will likely prevent my browser from crashing while editing bred ownership records, by limiting the number of images in each post. "

But I'll get more specific, so users know what is happening on my end while editing them.

Each post in the Ownership records contains around 260 images, some more, over 300, some less. Now, depending on how many trades I have to process, it can take 5 to 30 minutes per post. But, because each post is so image heavy, when I try to submit the the changes, my browser crashes, it doesn't update, and I lose the work done for that post and have to edit it all over again. So I spend an additional 5 to 30 minutes doing it again and praying it doesn't happen again. Sometimes it does, in which case, I usually don't try to update them for a little while, since it will just keep happening over and over. Which, then, causes some major delays in trade note updates.

I have done everything in my power to make sure my browser is up to date and figure out why it happens, and have found that, yes, it is definitely the fact that there are so many images in each post that causes the crash.

So, needless to say, at least for me, I'd rather spend an extra few seconds loading a page than an extra 5 to 30 minutes having to redo edits I have already done.
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Re: Layout For Bred Lucain/Paragon/Soveris Ownership Records

Postby Freezair » 06/13/2016 1:26 PM

For the record, I DO still mostly think this is a good idea, you know. :P I'm just trying to figure out a way to make it an improvement on all fronts.

For the record, part of the reason I get concerned about load times is that sometimes, when my Internet is in one of its more temperamental states, it will decide on its own to stop loading something if it's "taking too long." This leads to the listings being absolutely full of broken images so I often can't see to figure out which 'cain is which without opening the images in new tabs. And I'm pretty sure it's an Internet thing and not a browser thing, because it also happens frequently when I'm using mobile phones connected to this Internet. It's quite an annoyance, and THAT'S one of the reasons I get concerned about load times on this end.

I'm so cool (too bad I'm a loser).
I'm so smart (too bad I can't get anything figured out)!
I'm so brave (too bad I'm a baby).
I'm so fly
That's probably why it feels just like I'm falling for the first time!

I'm so green (it's really amazing).
I'm so clean (too bad I can't get all the dirt off of me)!
I'm so sane (It's driving me crazy)!
It's so strange
I can't believe I'm falling for the first time!

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Re: Layout For Bred Lucain/Paragon/Soveris Ownership Records

Postby ToxicShadow » 06/13/2016 1:52 PM

Ah, I see. Thank you for being more specific about what happens! I can see why that would be more concerning than a bit of a longer load time by itself.

Although, I'm thinking that having multiple pages, as I mentioned, would help to remedy this. It would still requiring loading up all the pages if you wanted to look through every single breeding, but each individual page would be less likely to take too long to load and leave you with broken images. Unfortunately, other than having multiple pages, I don't believe there would be another viable way to cut load times.

I'm welcome to suggestions on that front, for sure, I just can't think of anything else, personally.

I believe also, unless one often clears their cache, the load times won't be as long and strenuous after loading it up the first time, either. I almost never clear mine, but I don't know how often others do.
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Re: Layout For Bred Lucain/Paragon/Soveris Ownership Records

Postby Freezair » 06/13/2016 1:59 PM

I clear my cache reasonably often as a way of keeping my browser speedy, as a clean cache seems to help, but it also seems to spend a not-insignificant amount of time loading even with an unclean cache. And honestly, since I've had the issue with images not loading on other computers, it didn't occur to me for a moment that others might NOT have that problem. :P

Multiple pages seems like a good thing, though I would be concerned about the organizability.

I'm so cool (too bad I'm a loser).
I'm so smart (too bad I can't get anything figured out)!
I'm so brave (too bad I'm a baby).
I'm so fly
That's probably why it feels just like I'm falling for the first time!

I'm so green (it's really amazing).
I'm so clean (too bad I can't get all the dirt off of me)!
I'm so sane (It's driving me crazy)!
It's so strange
I can't believe I'm falling for the first time!

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Re: Layout For Bred Lucain/Paragon/Soveris Ownership Records

Postby Jaykobell » 06/13/2016 2:19 PM

I personally think it's a great idea.

For the page or browser crashing out, it's something that's happened to me as well, as well as the timing out Freezair mentioned. There are a few things that I do when my computer doesn't seem to be cooperating:

- I edit in the main forum post, but I then select all + copy and then I paste it in a new, empty word document as a safety measure. So if the browser refuses to load or times out, I don't lose my progress. Or if, god forbid, I accidentally close the tab. If closing the tab happens...

- If I closed the tab or the browser deleted my post/progress, then I refer to the Lazarus Google Chrome app. It's an app specifically to preserve your text; it shows up as a little ankh at the corner of your text box, and it allows you to select from a few versions, too. It's been a life-saver for me many times in the past.

- It does also happen to me that the page doesn't load properly; where, like Freezair, images are broken amongst others. I find that refreshing usually clears up the problem; I guess the cache/memory remembers the images it did load, and now it can focus on the missing ones? IDK if that's what actually happens, though.

What could possibly help with the load times... but I don't think it really helps (not to mention the huge amount of time it would take to adapt the records to this kind of format): putting the images as links, such as with the common customs, and the way the Diosols used to be. But I don't think that method is very popular; I'm personally not a fan of it since I can't see everything right away, but it does cut on load times a whole lot. If anything, the parents could have standard images, and then the offspring could be links?

But yeah, I don't think it's popular, despite the faster loading times (though I could be wrong).Not to mention the time it would take to switch it to that kind of format.

But I think it's a great idea. Like Moofius said, it's also nice to be able to see who owns the babies from X litter at a glance. I do like that a lot from the Kuhna records.
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Re: Layout For Bred Lucain/Paragon/Soveris Ownership Records

Postby ToxicShadow » 06/13/2016 3:05 PM

I haven't cleared my cache in at least over a year, but I believe I had the option of choosing to clear or not to clear data from certain websites. If you have the option, then clearing everything other than Evelon (and maybe photobucket) may be helpful to you regarding load times? It would likely keep your loading times on Evelon down, but clear it of everything else and make it go faster still.

It sounds like it has something to do with the internet speed, not so much a browser or computer problem, though. (Though, of course, there are a lot of factors that make computers, themselves, slow, too.) As my household is one filled with gamers and streamers we have pretty heavy usage when it comes to the internet (we have around 20 internet-ready devices), so we have an internet package that is supposed to be 100 mbps download, 10 mbps upload. (Although, since our company's ownership recently changed, we've often only been getting 50 mbps download.) I don't know how yours compares, but you can always check your current internet speeds at Speedtest.net. We tend to keep on eye on our internet speeds, in an attempt to make sure we are actually getting what we're paying for.

I believe I have encountered your problem only once, when I was using my newer mobile phone on it's nearly non-existent data plan, rather than on our own internet. Even my almost ten year old laptop doesn't stop loading, and it is the slowest device I have.
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Re: Layout For Bred Lucain/Paragon/Soveris Ownership Records

Postby ToxxicRenegadeAngel » 06/13/2016 5:53 PM

I think that splitting the litters between posts and having several pages of them will be a lot better for loading times. I also experience times when the page refuses to load images, or shuts down saying the page was unresponsive.

Having said that, I'm on a 4mbps connection (thank you Toxic for reccommending Speedtest.net) so that may be my problem ::S:
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Re: Layout For Bred Lucain/Paragon/Soveris Ownership Records

Postby Silver » 06/13/2016 7:15 PM

I'm all for the change, but I would definitely like to see if we can find a solution to the heavy loading times.

It takes be 3 minutes and 35 seconds to load the Lucain breeding records. That's a seriously long time! (It's definitely my internet speed - the infrastructure for internet here in Australia is butts. No way to fix that.)

It takes 1:22 to load the bred female Lucain list. However, I have to view two lists (male and female) if I want to see all of my records. I would rather load the breeding records once and just leave for 3 minutes than to wait for two whole pages to load. (Doing both at once would slow it down further.)



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