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Should ELEs and LLPs be eliminated?

Yes
18
90%
No
2
10%
 
Total votes : 20

Postby Kyrit » 05/04/2017 4:54 PM

We won't be getting rid of the LLP and ELE potions as they weren't created for the sake of a KS sink. They were created as a way for users to get around the biological problems presented to their characters. On Evelon, it is still biologically impossible for beings of the opposite sex (biological, not identified gender) to reproduce. While we do support relationships of any gender (or no gender), the biological problem still exists. With the combination of magic (as magic does exist on Evelon) of science working together though, the LLP and ELE make it possible for any two beings of the same species to have offspring together if they want.

That being said, the prices probably are high by today's standards of how much users are able to roleplay. As such, there is the possibility of a price slash. The amounts I pitched when talking to Kreepy (and kinda Baal as she's in the chat, but she hasn't said anything. She tends to leave shop costs and such to us though) were 5 KS for LLP and 20 KS for ELE. We both agreed those would be pretty fair prices.

This would mean that if you're only buying a single LLP and no other potion, your cost is essentially covered by you even posting to buy it. Granted, if you're wanting to stock up on them and buy quite a few at a time, you're still taking some cost out of pocket, but it's a lot less (35 KS, which is 7 RP posts, less).

If users are concerned about it possibly taking longer than they'd like for a potion to be recorded, buy ahead. With unlimited stock potions there's no limit to how many you can buy at a time. Breed same sex a lot? Buy a few potions and if you start getting low buy some more. I understand this might not have been feasible for people at the cost of 40 KS each, but at 5 KS each it definitely should be viable. If they cost 5 KS though, you could buy 8 all at once for the price you would've paid for one originally.

As for any refunds, if we are going to slash prices, the price difference refund would be fine with me personally. The staff as a team would have to decide how far back we'd go with sending KS out, but I see no harm in giving back some of the money from recent purchases (my pitch would probably be the past 3 months).
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Re: Another Suggestion

Postby Jaykobell » 05/04/2017 8:03 PM

I can agree (to a certain level) with the biological aspect of things, but — 

1. Evelon isn't real;
2. People have already found and are already using loopholes to circumvent the potions; and
3. Very few people actually RP their breedings as, well... actual breedings.

I mean, because Evelon isn't real doesn't mean things can be whatever they want, but — since it's a fantasy world, there's virtually endless possibilities to justify how same-sex creatures could have children out of a relationship. The creatures might be just ever so slightly different anatomically, or there's magic out there in the air that makes it work; or the children are created out of some... Godly conception (???) or something. Lol. Or... there could be magical potions allowing you to have kids. But it's just one of virtually endless possibilities.

I'm... just personally kind of against ruling things out solely based on biological reasons, because... fantasy world =/= reality. If we stuck to it that much, then the birth and growth of babies would last weeks/months, as it happens in real life; pets wouldn't have extra limbs or super powers, even "basic" abilities like speech and human-level intellect; pets would be limited to natural/real markings and color schemes; so on and so forth.

And well: I guess most people do RP situations where sex and/or children are involved, but... no one really... sticks to the basic 'breeding' theme anymore? I don't think? Maybe?? tbh I might just be a little disconnected to say 100% lol whoops. But I mean, compared to way back when, when breedings were actually IN the Breeding Center and when there were virtually no human characters — and if there were, they were just plain humans, not "pets" (i.e. a custom/animal pet) with a human form. You feel me? So like, then I feel like LLPs and ELEs made more sense.

But nowadays some people even RP "breedings" where the characters are kids on a play date (so no sex is involved and technically no children should happen either?? :'0), or just two BFFs hanging out, etc.

but

With Evelon also allowing literally anything: it kinda breaks the meta if you have the creative ability to create a being that can be both sexes, or what have you. I feel like Evelon is a world/setting where anything is possible, but then: there're things like this, where the reason (even if only meta) for their existence is because of... real life biology. It's kinda super, super jarring. You feel me?

And like... I think a price cut is a nice consideration, but. At 5KS, what's really the point though? Actually both for users and staff... it still creates extra work for the staff to update the records with the purchase and then every time someone uses a potion for a breeding.

IDK, maybe others will disagree, but. I feel like, with the way Evelon has evolved over the years: the LLP and ELE have kinda just become passé. And like people have said, some have found ways to circumvent that system and manage to abuse loopholes.

I mean: at 5KS, it... kinda sounds like it's just so it's there. Even if the concept is passé or considered unnecessary by the users, it's so dirt cheap that you can't argue about price.

Still: personally-speaking (IDK how users feel about that argument so?), not considering dropping the LLP and ELE because of RL biological reasons is... a weak argument. :'|'' Like — if we're talking biology, how does "magic" magically (lol) fix that problem? Does it give men a uterus?? Does it give women a penis and/or sperm? And I'm not being sarcastic or anything. xD I'd even argue a lot of people would like to know if there's a legit explanation to how those potions work?? But I'm just saying, "magic" here is a pretty weak deus ex machina when compared to real biological arguments.

Ultimately: people put two pretty images together and they get more pretty images. Biology — whether real or, even arguably, unreal — has little to do with the "process". If that makes sense??

tl;dr personally the biological/real world argument isn't reason enough to me since Evelon is a fantasy world with bendable rules and rules that can be created on the fly or conveniently for X situation; and it's just that the LLP and ELE have become passé due to how Evelon has evolved over the past 10 (soon to be 11) years.

the more I go back through my post to tweak it and edit it the more convoluted it becomes?? rip. i'm sorry I tried lmao
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Re: Another Suggestion

Postby Mojave » 05/04/2017 8:15 PM

I agree with Omni 110%. All of my thoughts, right there. c:
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Re: Another Suggestion

Postby Kylo » 05/04/2017 8:35 PM

I agree with Omni especially since I have trans characters so saying my trans man character needs a potion to breed with my cis man character is just kinda...weird to me? And if you say they don't need it it's also weird to me because it just feels...like cheating the system? When that's not the intention? Just biology like Omni said seems to be a strange thing to get hung up on in a world where you can nearly anything and just say "magic" to make it fit inline with Evelon lore.


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Re: Another Suggestion

Postby ToxicShadow » 05/04/2017 9:34 PM

I actually agree with all the reasons Omni brought up AND for the fact, if the only reason to have the LLP remains is biology, then we can go ahead and say that the breeding center INCLUDES the LLP with the fees they charge for breeding for couples that need it. Basically, treat it the same way that a Diosol Breeder Booster works (we say that the LLP is a part of the Booster already). But we can seriously just say that, for the sake of the story, that the potion is in the water supply at the breeding center, or they give out the potion as pets "check in," or there is always a potion sitting in the breeding rooms, just in case. It's barely relevant anyway, since most breedings don't take place in the Breeding Center these days, nor do most breedings have the parents actually related to their children, story-wise.

In addition to that, as far as biology goes, I have characters that can literally change their gender as they will it (fairies, aliens, you name it), so even that argument, for some characters, just doesn't work to begin with. Even with a serious price cut, which is nicer than things are now, if we are keeping them just to do so, then it's pretty pointless. There are ways around explaining it, like I suggested above.

The fact is, LLPs are just really archaic in concept and don't really fit with the way that Evelon has developed. They were great when they first came out, since the majority of breedables had set genders (as did the characters), but that's not the case anymore. Three breedables (Kuhnas, Soveris, and Diosol) do not have set genders, on that basic level, nor do all characters have set genders, they can change genders, or aren't the same gender assigned to their pixel image to begin with.

So, if we can't just get rid of them for reason of biology that not all characters adhere to, then can't we just say the magical potion is supplied by the breeding center, automatically? No extra fees, no posting to buy it. It's just included in the price of the breeding.
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Re: Another Suggestion

Postby Middy » 05/04/2017 9:37 PM

Well, they have made kids with two biological mothers before via science (even THREE parents, science is magic!) but with two men I don't think it's... possible scientifically yet? I don't know, I'm rusty on my genetics/biology points here. Been a few years since I took that class.

But on that topic, test-tube babies are a total possibility in Evelon (if it's very high tech, come on, it could work) so this type of thought isn't totally tossing biology out the window, it just has scientific intervention. But I don't know how futuristic Evelon is, even still, people don't always RP in a canon situation either.

I do agree with Omni on a lot of points as well, mostly by reducing work-load on the mods. We are all busy adults it seems (I'm no exception) so micromanaging things can be difficult. We also don't RP breedings in the breeding facility setting really, we make up our own stories that may or may not contain actual sex. It's very flexible now.

We also have so many different species, Evelon related or not, floating around. The possibilities seem endless! I even bred some androids a few times, and I know they can't reproduce unless they get some "kids" built or something.

I dunno, it's a mixed bag of nuts here lol
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Re: Another Suggestion

Postby Thunder » 05/04/2017 11:43 PM

We won't be getting rid of the LLP and ELE potions as they weren't created for the sake of a KS sink. They were created as a way for users to get around the biological problems presented to their characters. On Evelon, it is still biologically impossible for beings of the opposite sex (biological, not identified gender) to reproduce. While we do support relationships of any gender (or no gender), the biological problem still exists.

I pretty much agree with all the responses to this point. Evelon is a fantasy world where many real life things do not apply, so saying that breeding can only be done using a male + a female seems arbitrary. Furthermore, even if there IS a canon concept of how life on Evelon works, it has always been the case that users can ignore Evelon's lore while roleplaying. We can literally have any type of character on Evelon: "cosplay" pets, aliens, shape shifters, vampires, gods, demons, angels, people who came from other worlds, you name it. And I think this is one of the biggest appealing points of Evelon. If we're allowed to have characters that don't necessarily follow "real life" rules (or the Evelon world's rules, for that matter), then it's not logical to say that these characters must suddenly follow such rules just for breedings -- especially when most "breedings" aren't even actual breedings nowadays, as Omni pointed out. This argument takes the concept of a breeding way too literally.

I would also like to expand the point about the LLP and ELE not actually affecting the process of making litters. If you look at the entirety of the Mage's Brewery stock, the LLP and ELE are the only potions that don't actually impact the outcome of the breeding. Every other potion essentially contains some kind of direction for the artist to follow, such as "fewer babies" for the Skimp Tonic or "only male babies" for the XY Draught. Thus, these potions are useful to the user and lets the user have some kind of control over what they get out of their breeding. On the other hand, the LLP and ELE feel like restrictions that are...just there.

I agree with what Omni said about the price too. 5 KS is a huge price drop, yes, but it's also virtually nothing. At that rate you might as well just nix the potions entirely.

I understand that you're a modmin and ultimately, you, Kreepy, and Baal are the ones who have authority over how the site functions, but it's pretty apparent that the popular opinion among both users and staff is eliminating the potions. For people who do a lot of non-hetero breedings or even only non-hetero breedings, this would be a particularly welcome change since it makes what they want to breed much more easily done. Unless I hear a more convincing argument against eliminating the potions, my belief is that keeping the potion requirement for non-hetero breedings is maintaining an archaic concept on the site that doesn't need to be there. I really feel that going against the community's wishes here would be the wrong move.
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Re: Another Suggestion

Postby Redd » 05/04/2017 11:56 PM

Just for the record and it should really go without saying, but the official stance of the staff team is, and always has been highly supportive of diversity and we want this to be a safe place for everyone, regardless of gender or orientation.

But please understand, this is a very difficult conversation topic and I have tried to navigate the topic in the most respectful way possible and I really do apologise if I've screwed up somewhere.
It's definitely not our intention (And if I can rephrase anything, hmu? It's... yeah. Not an easy topic to discuss whilst also taking a game design/lore standpoint on).

First off, approaching this from a game design standpoint. Evelon is a game. It's a role-playing game and a breeding sim, but it still counts. Breeding pairs that are biologically viable is an established meta of breeding sims, and the breeding minigame. Websites in this category, that is, Wajas, Flight Rising, etc etc (aka sites that we've based our system off or used for inspiration), for the most part do force m/f breedings and some, either make you pay to change the pet's entire sex for the sake of one breeding, or two, don't allow you to swap sexes at all.

Next, we also approached it from a lore standpoint. Evelon, despite people roleplaying otherwise (which is fine, encouraged even, we all know I'm guilty of roleplaying other fandoms excessively) has a deep rooted and established lore, to the point where we've been able to have 100% lore friendly D&D campaigns. It doesn't matter for the sake of user's roleplays, but for site events and website functions, the lore is 100% canon and we follow it strictly. We're even looking to establish our lore further with the inclusion of Evelon specific holidays and re-writes of existing holidays to make them lore friendly.
So what I'm getting at with this point, was that it's strict to our lore that humans, chaos, seraphim and dwellers (our humanoid species), along with Paragon, Kuhna, Soveris and Lucain (our non-BBV1/2 breedables) do not possess the biological function changes sex,  and since this is an establish fact in Evelon lore, it is reflected in our breeding function. Kyrit's actually also been considering typing up some psuedo-scientific type descriptions for the potions, in same way the scientific names and descriptions have been done as well.

As far as the loophole goes, I was going to wait a little before announcing it, because it is still a prototype, but I was working on a record system much like the Ttee, where biological (or at birth) sex is recorded. It can be changed as necessary but it is also logged in the system so I can see if there's any abuse of the system happening.

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Re: Another Suggestion

Postby Mojave » 05/05/2017 1:06 AM

Kreepy wrote:As far as the loophole goes, I was going to wait a little before announcing it, because it is still a prototype, but I was working on a record system much like the Ttee, where biological (or at birth) sex is recorded. It can be changed as necessary but it is also logged in the system so I can see if there's any abuse of the system happening.


What about 'blank slate' pets, those we keep for breeding purposes only and assign character/gender based on the story we go with for that specific breeding?

I don't support getting rid of this ability because I've actually made characters with this method that have become permanent (even if they don't stay on the pet base I used originally). Or, if inspiration should suddenly hit, I don't want to be stuck with a gender I chose for a one shot breeding on a character that should be a different one.
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Re: Another Suggestion

Postby Freezair » 05/05/2017 1:14 AM

I've kept my nose out of this one so far, but I... actually side with Kreepy and Kyr on this one. Now, I do think making LLPs purchasable on room creation would be rad. It would absorb a common cost and mean there's no waiting for records to happen, just pay a little extra and bam. Magical babies from parents with the same equipment. But I do support the existence of them as potions and their use in both gameplay and lore.

A lot of people are talking about Evelon being a magical fantasy land where anything can happen, and... that's literally what the potions are. They are exactly the explanation for this phenomenon. They're the magic that allows for the anything to happen. I actually find it really fascinating what the existence of LLPs and ELEs means for what it means to be trans or nonbinary in Evelon, since they implicitly have an effect on a body's genitals and probably hormone makeup too. Can ELEs be used in place of hormone therapy or surgery? Do teenagers who are struggling with their identities take LLPs due to their temporary nature? Do some same-sex couples refuse the potion because they are too uncomfortable with the idea of having different genitals? Does Evelon even have the same sorts of social mores on gender and sex that the European-influenced west does due to the commonality of apparently changing one's biological sex? I've often said that the thing I like most about fantasy is the way it allows for the exploration of real-world topics, and this is one I've found fascinating for YEARS. Pretty much the first thing I did when the ELE became a thing all those years ago was imagine the implications it had for a trans character. So this is a part of lore I'm fond of.

This strikes me as being one of those instances where it's good for exploring real-world consequences. There is simply no viable commercial way for a same-sex couple to have biological children right now, especially two men. If you and your SO are the same sex and you want kids related to both of you, you need either a sperm donor or a surrogate mother. I imagine for a lot of Evelonian couples, buying a potion is a very emotional experience, similar to searching for donors/surrogates in real life--that first step on the road to becoming parents. Heck, maybe the potion IS the surrogate--maybe Joseph and Betty want kids, but Betty is infertile, and Joseph's best friend Gerald is the kind of man willing to take a bullet for his best bud; carrying a baby in his abdomen for nine months is the least he can do for the guy who he was best man for and his super-awesome wife.  

I will say, from a game design standpoint, not sure how I feel about "locking in" Kuhna and Soveris, though. I feel like that's something that should be able to be changed in the pet is traded at the very least.

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Re: Another Suggestion

Postby Redd » 05/05/2017 1:31 AM

Super off topic whoops, but. Same as the Ttee, it'll probably be 'undetermined' and it's not going to be a 'lock in' type deal, the idea is for it to be changeable, it just generates a log so I can see if it's being used every time the pet is being bred or something. It's still a WIP and it's still a fair way off (I'd like to just have a basic records system for regular pets first, and that's about 50% done as it is).

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Re: Another Suggestion

Postby Middy » 05/05/2017 1:53 AM

See, I am... torn on this, but I think I am siding with Kyr and Kreepy on this. While I did agree on some other points in this post, keeping potions in place does put up an illusion of "same-sex" breeding. Maybe it's magic or test-tube babies idl. In my previous post I mostly just explained some things and didn't put in TOO much of an argument.

I'm mostly on the side of "less work for mods" more than... LLP and ELEs. I don't want to get into gender politics either, if anything I would only be talking about the biology of one's sex. I know animals in nature can change sex, but the breedables we have aren't one of them. In nature, it's just not possible unless you are for example, a wrasse or clownfish.

Have them be 5ks? Fine, or even 10ks. It's easy, and simple, and keeps them in place. It might be easier to stock up too, if someone is afraid of not having them recorded.

What about linking the brewery post in the breeding? So you prove you paid for the potion?
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Re: Another Suggestion

Postby crow » 05/05/2017 2:07 AM

The problem is, with how Marketplace works, the onus is actually on the user to pay for the potions now... I usually just accept it if the post is paid for (either marked as paid, or checking the Marketplace acc myself), since I'm aware that I can't always process things quickly enough, and I don't want to penalize users for me being slow. It's only when it's not paid for that it becomes an issue.

But honestly, I'd been meaning to suggest it for a while now--- I think it'd be nice if users could just list the (non-limited) breeding potions they want in their first post; then I could record everything at once, and we'd bypass the whole have-it-on-hand issue. (I am probably not phrasing this very well... orz) With limited potions, it's understandable and even important to have their purchases be listed in one place where it's easy to track them, but if the potion is unlimited, I feel like it'd be more streamlined for users and for recording purposes to do it that way.

*the point mentioned in the above paragraph is separate of the whole issue of whether or not one should pay for a potion--- I just meant to address the recording/marketplace shop aspect of things

And I still don't see how any matters of lore and biology are incompatible with Toxic's idea of the LLPs just "being in the breeding center's water system", as it were. Just because you need an IC lore justification for same-sex breedings being possible doesn't mean it necessarily has to have a transactional element as we have now.
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Re: Another Suggestion

Postby zapdragon555 » 05/05/2017 2:13 AM

Another thing about lore that I've noticed is that, while it's important and very fun to follow, it has always been optional, never transaction-related. If a user doesn't feel comfortable having to assign their character a binary sex characteristic for a breeding that would've been allowed anyway with a potion, they shouldn't be forced to. If they WANT to participate in that lore like Freezie described, then they should go for it! But if lore is the biggest argument in favor of keeping the potions a required, purchasable thing, I don't really think it's right.

That being said I do find them fascinating in-universe, just as Freezie explained. I've never really had the thought to think of them that way. That being said, again, it should be a thing that users are allowed to use in a breeding RP--not required to think about, if it causes them grief. I know some folks might see this as walking on eggshells or something, but I honestly feel like it's just... the same as the rest of Evelon lore. Present, available, but optional for those who prefer to do their own thing in their own universe.

Unrelated but I like the idea of that gender record, @ Kreepy! And that blank slate pets are undefined and all that. It would be a good way to combat people trying to cheat the system.

EDIT: I also feel like simple price cuts wouldn't be a bad idea as well, buuut... I dunno. Urf. Again. It's kind of the principle of the thing.



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Re: Another Suggestion

Postby Thunder » 05/05/2017 5:02 AM

I do agree that the potions have fascinating implications, and they could allow users to explore a lot of the ideas Freezie mentioned (I remember distinctly that one of Omni and Kreepy's Kuhna breedings had a trans character who used the potions and I found it really interesting). I also don't think we have to eliminate the potions from the lore itself. But, as Crow and Toxic said, there really doesn't have to be a transactional, "pay-to-play" (as it were) part of the potions. We could always just type up an explanation of how the potions work like we did for Evelon's Religion and the Guide to Non-Pet Species, so if people DO want to incorporate using the potions into their stories, then they can still roleplay that without having to spend money on an actual potion. And then the people who don't follow Evelon canon don't have to worry about it.

((Off topic, but I noticed the religion guide and non-pet species guide are in two completely different parts of the forum, one in Help and the other in the Rules... Maybe we can make an "encyclopedia" section and move them there? Then we can also use the encyclopedia for any other lore related guides we make in the future.))

Also, while it is true that most breedable pet sites have strict rules that only a male and a female can produce offspring, there's nothing that says we have to be like other sites. Furthermore, sites like Wajas and Flight Rising are, at least from my experience, much more focused on the breeding feature itself and collecting pets rather than writing, which is our main focus.

For the record, I'm not trying to accuse anyone of making Evelon unsafe in terms of gender/orientation diversity, I'm just not very convinced of the necessity of buying potions from a lore-based standpoint P:
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"If everyone is one, none will be afraid."

Pen~Breeders~Trades~Wishes~Rentals
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Location: Being Baal's buttchin bird and Jaykobell's waifu
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