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Should ELEs and LLPs be eliminated?

Yes
18
90%
No
2
10%
 
Total votes : 20

Re: Another Suggestion

Postby Jaykobell » 05/05/2017 11:52 AM

Whops this exploded since my post ololol

I'm on my phone and I lit have like 5 minutes so excuse the short and curt reply! uwu

1. I agree it's part of the lore, but I agree with zap's point where the lore has always been more optional than mandatory

2. I love Toxic's idea of the breeding center just supplying the potions or having it run in the water; imagine rainbow fountains in the center??

3. I agree with Thunder on the potions being more like pay to play

4. I think an encyclopedia section would be super cool

5. I don't think people want to get rid of the lore aspect as much as they just want it to not be based around a transaction aspect; I agree with Freezair but yeah I think all people want is just to not have to pay / make it an obligatory transaction
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Re: Another Suggestion

Postby Skeetzybug » 05/06/2017 12:28 AM

I think, for me personally, the biggest reason I've always disliked LLPs goes again back to the fact that a HUGE section of my characters are gender-variant in some way.

Having to go by biological sex has always kind of felt like outing? I know that absolutely was not the intention, but for example, I have a pair of opposite gender identical twin characters. The idea behind them has always been that I never outwardly mention which one is transgender - however if I ever wanted to breed either of them that plan would be completely flummoxed because it's right there in the potion/lack of potion.

And as was mentioned that's not even TOUCHING shapeshifter characters I have like Keiro or Keelan that can change physical sex at will, and don't even have a binary birth sex. Also where do physically intersex characters lie on that line - I've always wondered? I've never known what to do with Zap.

If we're really gonna go on lore, then I think it might require putting back into place old lines that breedings have to be lore-compliant, instead of free-range and multi-universe like the rest of Evelon is often used. Which would be a welcome challenge, but is the only thing that really makes this whole argument make sense to me, personally.

He sleeps alone,
He needs no army where he's headed cause he knows
That they're just ghosts
And they can't hurt him if he can't see them
And I don't know
If in the morning I will be here and if so,
Let it be known
That I was worthy,
I was worthy,
I was worthy,
I was..
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Re: Another Suggestion

Postby Kylo » 05/06/2017 8:52 PM

I really agree with Skeetzy, especially as a trans person myself. I couldn't put into words earlier how it felt to see a sex record. It feels wrong, especially since I have characters who literally lack a sex at all. Talcen is not only agender, but he lacks a sex entirely. I have robot characters, and characters who have had sex reassignment surgery. How would you list them? And intersex people are neither male nor female so again how do you list them? I just foresee a lot of problems with a sex record when it comes to listing character who don't fall under strict female or male categories. And even Sedimus, as he's an incubus who shapeshifts to fit his partners now how would you list his sex if it can change depending on his partner? Male most of the time but sometimes female? Just if there is going to be a sex registry I want to know that these issues will be carefully addressed. Because these issues are very personal to me. I'm all for keeping the lore. I totally get that, and I'd even be fine I guess with still getting potions, I just want to make sure this new thing keeps things fair and well appropriate towards everyone.


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You're part of a machine, you are not a human being
With your face all made up, living on a screen
Low on self-esteem, so you run on gasoline

I think there's a flaw in my code
(Oh, ooh-oh, ooh-oh, oh)
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Lighting matches just to swallow up the flame like me?
Do you call yourself a fucking hurricane like me?
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Re: Another Suggestion

Postby Indigo » 05/20/2017 11:35 AM

I wasn't going to weigh in on this but honestly I'm really uncomfortable with the insistence on charging extra for same-gender couples when it's possible to handle the potion another way. Regardless of the intent it is essentially a gay tax? If we do have to have the potions as an explanation, fine, but I would much rather it be explained as included in the normal breeding fee than have to pay an extra fee for breeding characters of the same gender for no reason except that they're the same gender, you know?



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Re: Another Suggestion

Postby zapdragon555 » 05/20/2017 1:48 PM

Indigo wrote:I wasn't going to weigh in on this but honestly I'm really uncomfortable with the insistence on charging extra for same-gender couples when it's possible to handle the potion another way. Regardless of the intent it is essentially a gay tax? If we do have to have the potions as an explanation, fine, but I would much rather it be explained as included in the normal breeding fee than have to pay an extra fee for breeding characters of the same gender for no reason except that they're the same gender, you know?

To put it bluntly, yeah, this.

Before, I decided not to get my personal views involved and just work solely on the context of the lore issue, but the tax on non-hetero breedings leaves a sour taste. In most virtual pet websites, same gender couples aren't allowed to breed at all whatsoever (which is honestly kind of silly because they're pixels for one thing and for another thing not all gay couples are unable to have children--as a few have said, this completely tramples the idea of transgender folk). On Evelon, you have to pay, which is... still strange, from a moral standpoint.

Re: "the gay tax," we have enough KS sinks and though the potions are a cool concept, they only really matter when dealing with cisgender, homosexual breedings. Which again, unless we have some kind of odd permanent "gender database" for all characters ever, is very hard to determine on a case by case basis. And besides that, forcing a user to describe their virtual colorful pixel character's sexual anatomy is a little bit strange, too (this is more on the side of nonbinary / intersex characters). Which is why I think it should be eradicated money-wise, so that none of the gender database stuff matters, and it's far less of a headache to anyone.

Don't get me wrong, I totally understand that paying to be able to breed same gender is better than not being able to at all. But if we're sticking to this LLP / ELE idea solely on the fact that "they've always been there," (which is evident in that the idea was brought up to sell them for 5 KS, the price of posting in the Potions Brewery--i.e. literally free), then I have to disagree. If something is no longer necessary, I think we need to recognize as a community that it's no longer necessary. And if the vast vast majority are on the side of abolishing the potions, it doesn't seem right to deny them. It's not the price that users are upset about, it's the principle of the thing. No matter how cheap the potions are, it still stands that they exist, and their existence implies disadvantage to those who have non-hetero-non-cis characters that they want to breed.

That, and creating more work for the mods (gender database, sending out these very commonly used potions, and lord forbid keeping track of 5 KS transactions) seems counterproductive, when simply abolishing the fee for the potions would create FAR less work and effort. And, it would please those users (again... I'm seeing a majority) who want this to happen.

So. Keep the potion as a concept, for users who actually want to use it in their RPs. Keep it as part of the lore for when two creatures of the same gender want to breed. But don't make it cost anything and don't make it required. It preserves lore, and it makes the userbase happy--so it's honestly a win-win situation.

This isn't meant as an attack on anyone's views. I'm simply presenting my own, and my own common sense about the subject.



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You'll see, with no more tears
And love will not break your heart
But dismiss your fears
Get over your hill and see
What you find there
With grace in your heart
And flowers in your hair



"Tomorrow will be a good day."


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Re: Another Suggestion

Postby Middy » 05/20/2017 2:28 PM

I agree with you Zap, I know some trans/gender fluid folk myself. I might have some sour taste towards the LGBT community, but I still support it regardless.

The only thing I can say is, without trying to start something horrible is, our vote needs to matter somehow on this. We can make any argument we want and make our case, but I don't think this will come to pass unless we put it to a vote on whether or not we can change this. It seems like something the vast majority wants, but we can't do much to change it. There seems to be a compromise, but I feel as though the general user-base wants something more.

I have thought on this for a long time, and I just think... we should abolish the potions. Gender isn't cut and dry, and hell, neither is someone's sex. I don't know, I wish we could do something that makes everyone happy. Don't want any negative vibes!

Sorry if I'm rambling! Didn't sleep much lol
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Re: Another Suggestion

Postby Mojave » 05/20/2017 2:32 PM

Added a poll so that we can see just how many people want this.
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Re: Another Suggestion

Postby ToxicShadow » 05/20/2017 4:32 PM

I definitely agree with Zap and Indigo here.

As far as keeping to the lore, I LOVE the idea that Shrewd said: I beautiful rainbow fountain somewhere in the breeding center. Having the potion included in the breeding center fees makes perfect sense, in what ever way we say it happens, though. That the potion is handed out, that it's just in the water supply there, etc. Now, there might be concerns that new users wont know about the potion if we remove it, so that lore will be gone to them, BUT we could still leave the potions and their descriptions in the Brewery shop, but mark them unavailable for purchase because they are now included automatically in breedings. Still listing them in the shop would also preserve their existence in the lore. I don't know if that's a concern, but I figured I'd bring it up.

We're not entirely asking to erase them from the lore, at this point. I don't have MANY characters that use them, but I have two or three cannon instances of male pregnancies because of LLPs. So I understand why some want to keep them for the sake of lore, but there are ways around having to pay extra for them.
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Re: ELE/LLP User Feedback

Postby Skeetzybug » 06/22/2017 1:12 AM

Since a month has passed with little commentary on this I was curious to see what the current stance was.

He sleeps alone,
He needs no army where he's headed cause he knows
That they're just ghosts
And they can't hurt him if he can't see them
And I don't know
If in the morning I will be here and if so,
Let it be known
That I was worthy,
I was worthy,
I was worthy,
I was..
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Re: ELE/LLP User Feedback

Postby zapdragon555 » 06/22/2017 12:52 PM

@Skeetzy All I can properly say is that a decision has not yet been reached. Discussion between mods is slow but ongoing!



But there will come a time
You'll see, with no more tears
And love will not break your heart
But dismiss your fears
Get over your hill and see
What you find there
With grace in your heart
And flowers in your hair



"Tomorrow will be a good day."


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Re: ELE/LLP User Feedback

Postby Skeetzybug » 06/22/2017 11:00 PM

Thank you so much for the update, even a small one. To know it's still being discussed speaks a lot.

He sleeps alone,
He needs no army where he's headed cause he knows
That they're just ghosts
And they can't hurt him if he can't see them
And I don't know
If in the morning I will be here and if so,
Let it be known
That I was worthy,
I was worthy,
I was worthy,
I was..
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