What should we do with Elemental Area Attacks?

[Kodai]

((Old poll was about AP, so that's what all of the older posts are about.))

Time for a new poll relating to Battle Traits. 8D; I know you guys love me. ...Please say yes. ; 3;

Anyway, while making the absorption-type Traits, Shieba pointed out to me that... the Elemental Area Attacks are pretty useless. Who would want to use them in a single battle when you could just use the corresponding Elemental Attack, do the same amount of damage, and not damage yourself? In addition, they're only minimally useful in double battles, since they hurt everyone on the field. Now, with the absorption Traits, you can take out this damage, but the Area Attacks still don't really look like an attractive option for a battling pet (unless you want a weird way of healing yourself).

My hope for the Elemental Area Attacks was to introduce a bit more strategy into battles, but if no one uses them, then it's pointless. Shieba suggested that making them work like wide-reaching moves in Pokemon – hitting everything except the user – might help.

What do you guys think? o ^o

[Mojave]

Before I vote, I'd like to say one thing. o3o If AP isn't recoverable in battle, then that means more work. We'll have to have a place to go to restore those points and heal and/or items. So I'd like to vote that the points are recoverable in battle.

[Jaykobell]

As far as I'm concerned (and if I understand your concern correctly), AP might not be recoverable during battles, but it will be automatically recovered once the battle is over. Just like Endurance is recovered before every battle.

So you wouldn't have to go anywhere to recover APs, nor would you have to pay to recover them, or anything. At least, that's the way I see it.

And glad to see someone finally posted in this topic. x3

[Mojave]

I didn't think about that. xD That would work equally better, if not just plain better.

And you know me, I can't keep my two cents to myself. xD;;;

[Jaykobell]

The way we want to do it... is that the Traits would add extra damage, pretty much as they do it now, but in the form of attacks rather than being automatically added to a pet's stats (i.e. Extended Claws, among others). They would all work like Pyro.

So in that aspect, there's no real 'way' of recovering AP during battles. Though, one idea we thought about (which was proposed by a member) was to have 1AP recover for a normal attack (without a Trait).

So say you attack using a Trait. Your damage will be dealt by Offense - Defense + extra damage + Trait attack (i.e. Extended Claws). Using Extended Claws drains X APs from your bank.

A regular attack would be Offense - Defense + extra damage. Since you're not using a Trait (thus not draining AP) you recover AP.

... Did any of this make sense.

[Freezair]

Clear as crystal, Shrewdie.

Gee I wonder what we're going to end up doing. XD

[Shieba]

Geez, wow. Yeah, I'm the one nay-sayer in that poll. o3o; I actually LIKE, if not plain love the fact that Pyro and other traits are one-time only and that, in essential, the number of battle traits limits our options so much. I'd hate to turn the battle system into something where, at higher levels, both pets can just go and spam Pyro and the one with better luck hits more and wins like that. Wasn't that what people complained about during the early days? I see how it won't be a problem with lower leveled pets with less AP, but I really, really don't want to battle with higher leveled pets like that...not that my opinion means anything, given the poll. o3o; Haha.

[Kyrit]

Higher leveled pets are the reason we decided to come up with the AP system. There has always been the trouble with higher level battle lasting ages because they have such high endurance yet do so little damage to one another. AP would limit the amount of times attacks could be used while at the same time allowing them to be used more than once. The more damage an attack does, the more AP it takes. You won't be able to use an attack every single turn since you'll run out of AP, but it will help higher level battles end slightly faster.

My personal opinion would be to not recover any AP during battle just to help balance it out. As said though, I think AP will drain quickly enough that you won't be able to just spam attacks.

[Jaykobell]

Another thing we might implement (there's a lot of things going on with the Traits) is strategy. By adding Traits similar to Growl and Tail Whip in Pokemon, the battlers would need to choose between using offense or using those Traits. So if you lower your opponent's Precision literally to 0, there's very little chance you'll lose. But will you be able to lower it? Or might spamming your attacks be better? Using those stat-influencing Traits wouldn't do any damage (so they replace your attack).

I'm not sure I really understand your concerns, Shieba. Though what I understand is that you're afraid people will eventually reach levels when they can just spam Pyro nearly endlessly?

Concerning AP, Kodai thought of a system for it. Your pet starts with 10AP. Pyro costs 3AP to use.

Every 5th level, you would gain 5AP. So at levels 1-4, you have 10AP - the base. From levels 5-9, you have 15. Unlike stats, you don't add an AP to your pet's bank every level. Rather, once you reach level 5, then you add 5AP. So it won't go from level 1/10, to level 2/11, to level 3/12.

If we go by that way, not only will AP become virtually useless at later levels, but so will the Traits, since 5 really isn't that big.

To remedy that, Kodai figured every Trait could increase in AP cost and in damage as your pet increases its APs. Example:

Level 1-4 -> You have 10AP. Pyro costs 3AP, deals 5 damage.
Level 5-9 -> You have 15AP. Pyro increases as well, and now costs 6AP, and deals 8 damage.

So on and so forth.

Though keep in mind this system is extremely young and we just recently started talking about it, so don't think we're going to adopt it. That's really the reason why I wanted Kodai to put up a poll, because I personally think it's extremely confusing and involves a lot of math to do. Every Trait would be different, so you can't expect Extended Claws to 'evolve' the same way as Pyro, since their values are different.

[GrayGriffin]

I dunno...I think some traits shouldn't need an AP cost...like Extended Claws...that would be like having an AP cost for breathing, since things like that should be natural.

[Shieba]

Level 1-4 -> You have 10AP. Pyro costs 3AP, deals 5 damage.
Level 5-9 -> You have 15AP. Pyro increases as well, and now costs 6AP, and deals 8 damage.

Yeah, see, there's my problem. My pet is level 15. I think she has 21 Endurance. So what, an enemy level 5-9 can almost knock her out with two Pyros? That's just wrong. Sorry. The problem is that these AP traits seem to ignore Defense. I invested everything I could have put into Endurance into Offense and Defence and now the system is supposed to get changed in a way which renders that to be the dumbest way ever and only Endurance matters? No. Just...no.

[Jaykobell]

Then by that logic, Pokemon shouldn't use PP for attacks like Scratch and Slash?

They are natural, but will you use them? It's like Pyro. It might be just as natural, but as you use it, the power wears off. An animal can't endlessly use its claws; either they'll break or something. I mean, I'm not zoologist, but.

... Apparently I just don't know my Traits, eh. But I still think my logic kinda stands.

EDIT: Shieba, I just said the system is brand new. Don't shot it down, give constructive criticism? I even said I don't like it. You're jumping to conclusions and insinuating we'll just accept a faulty system. x:

So it doesn't please you, that's fine. What else can we do, then? That's why we're asking for feedback on this.

[Shieba]

Sorry if my constructive criticism somewhere got lost in there. My point is: Traits which deal damage which ignore defense should stay one-time only because otherwise, people who invested in Defense and Offense instead of Endurance will get shot down in fights brutally. Which is why I dislike the fact that Traits like Pyro should be useable more than once since they would make fights unfair and encourage one-sided leveling for Endurance. Better now?

[Kodai]

In reply to your concern, Shieba, we don't yet know how the numbers will exactly work. We don't know for sure what levels the AP and damage will increase at, or by what amounts. That was simply an example, used for simplicity. If the numbers don't add up (so to speak) every 5 levels, using the base AP amount as the number to increase AP and damage by, then we'll change the numbers. We're just using these numbers to explain what we're thinking, and if you can point out flaws with these numbers (like you have), then we can simply change them until they do work.

I did suggest that perhaps using the base AP as the amount to increase the AP cost by wouldn't work, and that it should be half the base AP cost (rounded up) instead. This way, it would be:

Level 1-4 -> You have 10 AP. Pyro costs 3AP, deals 5 damage.
Level 5-9 -> You have 15 AP. Pyro increases as well, and now costs 5 AP, and deals 7 damage.

[Shieba]

Level 1-4 -> You have 10 AP. Pyro costs 3AP, deals 5 damage.
Level 5-9 -> You have 15 AP. Pyro increases as well, and now costs 5 AP, and deals 7 damage.

Which would knock my level 15 pet out with three Pyros, useable at level 5. This is even more flawed than the version Shrewd gave us.

Nah, really, why do we have to change this at all? I mean, first there were Traits V2, which was totally "YAY new stuff" because it didn't screw up so much since most Battle Traits remained and I enjoyed spending 20 hours on selecting new traits. Then there was the Offense/Defense switch which was kinda "Yay...?" because it meant spending many hours again and kinda messed some pets completely up which were good in battles before. Now we have so many new Passive Traits which made me go "Uhhh yay?!" because they meant 5 hours of going all over my pets again and now a new battle system which messes up all battle-pets again AND changes Battle Traits and I'm all "NO WHY AGAIN DDDDDDDDD8" because I'm pretty sick of having my battle-pets messed up again and having to spend 20 hours on selecting new traits again. Guess that's why I'm a bit unhappy now...sorry.