What do you think of being able to have 'passive' Battle Traits?

[Kodai]

"Homz, Kodai, stop putting more words in front of 'Trait' and confusing us all EVEN MORE."

Anyway, I think you guys might like this idea (if you use Traits, anyway). P=

You will be allowed to choose as many Battle Traits for your pets as you like. However, you will still only be allowed to use six (seven for custom pets) during battles. The Traits that you don't use for battle will be similar to Passive Traits, in that they're used more for descriptive purposes.
You will be able to 'switch out' Traits for others, if you so desire, but you can never use more than six (or seven) in battle. For example, if your pet is an elemental mage and you wish to use Fire attacks during one tournament, but Ice attacks in another, you would be able to switch your Traits from the first tournament to the second. (You still wouldn't be able to switch Traits during a single tournament.) If you're worried about people 'switching out' Traits in order to gain the upper hand on an opponent, don't worry – I have the idea of making all tournament entries done through PMs in the future, so that entrants don't know who their opponents are and therefore can't try to gain an advantage that way.
Naturally, you would still need to apply for any Restricted or Shrine Traits you might want.

Anyway, tell me what you think? o uo

[Thunder]

Well we already kind of have stuff like this, right? Like Hulking Figure, which increases your pet's size and thus would affect size-based traits, and Blind, which would prevent you from using certain vision-based battle traits. I don't think it's necessary to have a whole new "passive battle trait" category, but if you think it would be more organized that way, sure. I don't have any complaints.

[Shieba]

Thunder, you missed the point. The idea behind this is for example someone having an elemental mage character who has control over fire, ice and earth. But naturally, you don't want to take up all your slots with elemental attacks. This new system would allow you to list them all, though, to show that your character controls the elements, without wasting slots. Likewise, you might want to give your pet a trait that helps in 2vs2 battles to show that it works well with its lifemate. But since we never have 2vs2 battles, putting that Trait in right now would completely waste a slot. With the new idea, you could just list the Trait without using a slot for it.

[Moofius]

So wait, the tl;dr would be:

Instead of only being allowed to have battle traits, you can have ALL KINDS of battle traits, but would be restricted to only using 6 (7 if a custom) in tournaments and the like.

That about right?

[Shieba]

Moof: That's correct. You can list all Traits you want and you pick six/seven for a tournament. However, you must still get the Shrine Traits and restricted Traits granted first before you are allowed to list those at all, no matter if as 'passive' battle Traits or 'active' ones.

[MillietheWarrior]

It might just be me (And I might be the only one voting) but this sounds…Meh, I dun like the idea. I guess because I like the idea of having only a set amount. I’m extremely tired, and my reasoning might not make sense XD

I like the idea of only ever having so many traits. I mean, I dunno if you can switch a trait later on in your pet’s RP life (Like say, you have Deluge or something, and later on you’re like ‘I’d rather have Tsunami’) I like the amount of traits kind the way they are~ If you could trade later, like one trait at a time depending on your characters element/life/Rps/Battles what-have you, but not have a whole list of passive traits to choose from; just say, your character is light/water, and instead of Ray, you want deluge, so you switch, it makes more sense to me than listing a huge list of traits and picking and choosing as it suits your desire to battle or what have you. Do I make sense at all?  XD I don’t really like the idea of switching traits during a tournament either. =/ You said ‘pick six/seven’ but that they can be switched out during that tournament. I don’t really like that idea.

But eh, that's just me. If this'll help in some way, I don't mind. I just...don't really see a purpose/reason for it, really, other than giving people a crap-ton of traits to pick and choose from.

[Shieba]

Nuh, Millie, you misunderstood. You cannot switch Traits during a tournament. At all. What this suggestion is is mainly making you able to have a "pool" of sorts of Battle Traits. And for a tournament (or a single non-tournament battle or anything), you pix six/seven Traits from that pool. Those are then set for the entire duration of the tourney.

In a way, this is what everyone has been doing all the time anyway. People have abused the tournament signups before, looking at what Traits the others who had already signed up have and then adjusting theirs. Trait switching is nothing new, only that it was, until now, something that was frowned upon. Making you have that "pool" is just making what everyone has already been doing legal while also allowing you to switch restricted Traits out.

Since you apply for restricted Traits, no one ever switched those out before (because then you basically applied for nothing, right?). With the new system, you would be allowed to do that without having to post that you erased your Trait and maybe later re-applying. There is no abuse possible since you can only really switch a restricted Traits out for either another restricted Trait you have been granted or a free one, which are generally weaker than the restricted ones. This is a system that cannot be abused in any way.

You did get it right, though, that it's a system to "give people a crap-ton of traits to pick and choose from". Because that's what Traits are: Something to have a crap-ton to choose from to describe your character. So far, if you had an elemental mage, you couldn't really show that. You gave the character "Elemental manipulation" as a passive Trait and maybe one elemental attack. But people who looked at your character description couldn't get "elemental mage" out of that. Now with the new system, you can give your mage every single elemental attack there is without wasting slots and those who read the Traits see "ooooh, so many elemental attacks, it's a mage!" (Also, in case you are wondering: I always do that. Looking at the Traits, I mean. I never read character descriptions, I just look at Traits or keywords or titles describing characters because if I am looking for a pet to RP with, reading all the descriptions of all pets people have in their pens would break my brain. So yes. I only read keywords. Traits are keywords. So more Traits = awesome!)

[Thunder]

Oh no, I know what Kodai means, I just think it's not really necessary to make an entirely new category for traits like this since we do already have passive traits that affect battle. You might as well make a passive trait called "Multi-elemental" or something and assign that to your pet. I personally don't bother assigning passive traits to my pets unless they would affect battle in some way (ex. Blind, Hulking Figure, Diets) because I type character descriptions instead of giving my pets Passive traits.

Again, if most people think it would be beneficial, I don't mind it at all. I'm just stating that we already have traits that function like the proposed "Passive Battle Traits".

[Kyrit]

My only question is.... why is this in the updates (even minor) instead of the suggestion area? XD Since it's under question rather than being announced that it's happening.

[Shieba]

My only question is.... why is this in the updates (even minor) instead of the suggestion area? XD Since it's under question rather than being announced that it's happening.

I suspect it's because Kodai always had the battle Trait polls here? o3o We had them in the updates before when it was about changing how the elemental attacks work and all. Kodai has always lamented that very few people actually comment on Trait suggestions and changes in the suggestion forum - it's mainly always only Freezy, Thunder and me. The updates get at least a bit more attention? o3o The breeding room changes were dicussed here with a poll, too?

Again, if most people think it would be beneficial, I don't mind it at all. I'm just stating that we already have traits that function like the proposed "Passive Battle Traits".

That's kinda true, but I think they are different? Those passive Traits are, well, passive. They don't do anything but changing your pet's size. While this does affect some battle Traits, it's not really something that justifies wasting a slot on because it only affects so few other Traits and is actually more of a personality thing than a battle thing in the first place. All "real" battle Traits affect fighting much more, I think. And yeah, I know most people like descriptions much more. I just...never read them. xD; I only look at Traits.

[ToxicShadow]

I'm really on the fence in this particular case.

One thing I keep thinking a few things to myself: There is no reason to treat battle traits like passive traits. Battle traits are not given to pets for the purpose of "describing," them, or that is not what they were intended for. They are simply there for battling, and that was all the ever were. And, as it is, a lot of people seem to find the trait and stat system confusing and time-consuming enough as it is without added an element that isn't actually crucial or needed. Adding the use of more battle traits to that just complicates things further, and makes it take all that much more time that, frankly, I don't think most people have to begin with.

The point about limiting battle traits, to me, made perfect sense. You had to pick and choose from a limited amount. You had to make the decisions to strategize with your traits, it made things challenging, because you had to weigh the pros and cons of choosing or not choosing a trait when you were limited. Of course, originally, people didn't sit there and swap out traits all the time, either. Honestly, I don't think most users rehaul battle traits all the time and, in my opinion, they shouldn't be able to. However, even if people did, they had to have those possible consequences to getting a restricted trait, getting rid of it, and then having to reapply. That made things at least somewhat balanced. On top of that, if one can have however many battle traits they want and just choose them for a fighting round/tournament, it could cause some over powering. Like Shieba said, she had a character that she would like to get a trait for that is only used for 2v2 battles. Well, in my opinion, her having to decide to have it or to not have it is fair. If you can bypass using those extra traits in a lot of fights because of the unlimited trait slots, then they could end up picking a ton of really powerful traits in most battles, making them over powered. Sometimes, you have to sacrifice large damaging battle traits for practical survivability traits, and that is a choice that people should always have to make, without having a ridiculous hoard of them. Especially if not having a hoard of them could give you a disadvantage to those that do have a lot of them, probably then making people feel as though they must have a lot of traits, even when it then wont fit the character correctly. You know, if we're talking about characters, it swings that way, too.

[Shieba]

I'm not sure if I understand how you see the abuse of this system, Toxic. Lemme try to elaborate (I'm posting so much here because I kinda developed this together with Kodai, by the way).

1) Restricted Traits need to be applied for still. You still can't just "hoard" restricted Traits like crazy because you still need good reasons to get them. No one will end up with twenty restricted Traits because of that. If you fear that there will be people having six slots full of restricted Traits on a single pet - if they have the reasons for this, they can easily have this now already if their reasons are sound.

2) The slots remain and your point is valid - you basically need your stat increasers and only two or so "damaging" battle Traits because your AP are limited and you'll get hurt badly in a tournament if your stats don't get increased past the restriction by Traits. Because of that, even people who might end up getting four restricted Traits granted might switch them out for "free" Traits. There is no real abuse possible - in fact, since tournaments will now have PM applications, there will be less abuse. People switch their free Traits around all the time. You are right that people don't revamp their battle Traits all the time, but they sure do before tournaments to have a greater chance of winning. Switching occurs anyway, so why not making it "legal" and giving people the possibility to describe their characters even better?

3) Battle Traits are for character description. If they wouldn't be, we wouldn't need the application system for restricted Traits that we have now. You only gain those if your pet has a reason to have them. So they are describing Traits. All other Trait categories are limitless, so battle Traits should be, too. Because, quite frankly, they show your pet's abilities more than any other Trait category. So many pets here are mages, gods, angels and demons and the most you can do through passive Traits is saying "It's an angel! (Celestial Heritage)" or "Can make it rain! (Weather Warper!)". But with the battle Traits, you can directly spell out what your pen can do? Can it just make it rain a lot (Deluge)? Or can it even make it rain so much that it can cause great destruction (Tsunami)? Is your angel actually a real angel who has wings to fly and use in battle (Wingstorm)? Or is it more a guardian angel posing in human form, but still having the powers of light (Ray)? You can't say anything like this through passive Traits only!

4) Kodai actually had the idea of making passive battle Traits their own section - as in, we would have Battle Traits, Passive Traits and Passive Battle Traits. That would mean three sections of Traits, causing even more confusion! If we keep it to two sections, but allow switching, I think this would be more convenient for everyone than having a third section to confuse people with.

[ToxicShadow]

As I said, I don't believe that most people switch their traits around a lot. Maybe you do, but aside from that, I can't really think of anyone else that actively does, and probably not a majority of users. (I don't even think the majority of users have the time and effort to put into traits, aside from maybe a few battling ones on a few pets, even if that. They already see it as a hassle.) Yes, someone gets prepared for a tournament by getting the traits they want for it, and maybe changing things rarely, but not frequently. It doesn't make any sense to me to have so many trait switches when, in every other battle system I can think of, you only get the chance to learn a new skill and swap it around every once in awhile as, say, a pet levels up or something, after the initial few moves they have. You know, a major change of some kind has happened to them. (And, heck, I've been the war. Most people I can think just grabbed their traits and that was that, even with such a crucial thing going on where your stats were not even "locked in.")

And, no, battling traits really are not/were not used to actually describe characters, or that certainly wasn't their main reason for existing. That's what passive traits are for and they don't need to be super specific. Or, really, go ahead and make regular specific passive traits or make notes next to the trait such as: Elemental Manipulator [Fire, Water, Earth]. It can be just as effective if you make notes, or if more passive traits were added, like Water Element, Fire Element, and so on. Those don't need to be in the battle traits section if it is just pet description, which are Passive traits. The difference between Battle traits and Passive traits was always well defined. Passive: Describes a pet. Battle: Outlines moves used in official battles. Sticking them together is just unnecessary.

As for restricted traits: the point of having restricted traits was always to make sure that a pet was not too powerful, thus the reason that they would need to give a proper reason to justify why they should have powerful move in the first place.

You wouldn't even have to implementing this or Kodai's idea of a third section, if you just make notes next to passive traits, just have specific regular Passive traits made, or even just make a few word area in your pet's description of it's magical or physical abilities on your own. There is nothing stopping anyone from doing just that, if reading full descriptions (where abilities are normally outlined) is too time consuming. (Which was one of your earlier statements.)

I honestly don't think a lot of people are "gunning," for this idea, just mildly agreeing with it, like a "yeah, okay, that's cool" since you've been the only one combating anyone else's dislike of it. (No one has outright posted their like of it or defended against anyone elses' other statements.) I don't see how this can really benefit a whole lot of people, and you've already posted about all of your points on the matter.

By now, I know that some people are also pretty tired of the endless changes to the stat and trait system, to the point where a number of people went, "Well, forget it, this is too much hassle now to even bother with, period, or to bother with for more than just a small handful of pets." All of it is just tiring.

If it's broken, fix it. The stats and traits were already fixed and messed with over and over again. However, it's not broken now, so there is no reason to keep messing with it and to make large alterations when so few have caught up to the first change.

[Shieba]

I won't go into specifics of everything you posted since I, as you said, already made most of my points before.

I don't switch my Traits around for tournaments, ever, no, because it is frowned upon. I don't do things like that. Which is why I had to resort to passive Traits notes so far and quite frankly, it was pretty horrid. "Elemental Manipulation" is, for example, specified as non-combat pretty much, so indeed, we would have to add 3463473 passive Traits to outline more abilities. I'm not sure why you think that a million more passive Traits would be less overwhelming than just allowing people to list more battle Traits to do the same. If you are right and people never switch battle Traits anyway, then it will be just that - a list of Traits that harms no one since the people won't switch away from their six/seven active ones anyway.

I agree that big changes on the system shouldn't be made anymore, but how is this a big change? You don't need to do anything if you're happy with your Traits! There are no new calculations, no need to pick anything else if you're happy with what you have since nothing puts you at a disadvantage! This is for descriptive purposes, mainly, and to basically get rid of the "switching is illegal but people do it anyway before tournaments" stuff by simply making it legal. No one forces you to make passive battle Traits since they indeed do nothing in battle if they are not your active slots. There is no penalty and because of that, no work is needed at all if you're not into descriptive Traits. There is nothing really added that people haven't done so without telling anyway, so there is...little new. Seriously. There is nothing to "catch up upon" if this is added? I don't see why you think this is a big change of the battle system.

[ToxicShadow]

Simply put: If it's really not necessary for what was originally intended (battle traits being for battling, not for describing a character), there is no reason to change it.

Merging two things that were set in place to do two very different things, that's what's unsettling more than anything. So, yes, more Passive traits (that don't even require apply for) would be favorable over having an awkward middle category.