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.:Concerning The Trading Post:.

Postby .:Trader_Morey:. » 05/30/2014 9:14 PM

Sorry for the delay in things. I have been rather busy with other tasks that had kept me from addressing this. That aside, I have some news for you folks. It could be either good or bad.

That male Lucain has been up for quite a while now, but I have not forgotten him or you.
However, not many people have taken interest or actually applied for him unlike I had hoped. So I will give you a bit more time to decide but I will choose an end date very soon if enough people apply, so try while you still have a shot at him. What happens if not enough people imply is being decided upon.

The two options I am looking at as of right now are...

-That he be sent to my brother who will put him up for auction.
-His owner will be picked out of those who applied.

If the first option does happen then I sincerely apologize to those who applied for him.

I have a second thing I have to address with you my friends. I may shut down again. What does this mean for you guys? Well, it means that I will stop trading and won't start up again either. This is due to how there seems to be a lack of interest in the Lucain above.

I am going to ask for your guys' opinion on this rather than shutting down if that Lucain continues to not generate enough interest.

Tell me...
-What does generate your interest
-What turns you off of applying
-New ideas for what to do to change things for the better.
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Re: .:Concerning The Trading Post:.

Postby Kylo » 05/30/2014 10:00 PM

Actually pets like that lucain generate my interest greatly. I love pets based on real animals, like really love them. Things that turn me off to applying is the wait time. Because I'll offer items for the pet but as months go by I accidentally trade some of those pets that I'm offering and I'm forced to change my offer. Also holding on to pets for that long is seriously difficult for me.

I feel putting a deadline when the pet is posted will force people to offer then and not have to spend weeks thinking it over. Deadlines tend to force people to work faster and get a move on while if there is no deadline people tend to put it off as they want to see what others offer first so they can offer more or better pets.

Another suggestion is take a poll on what species people want to see in there (if this already happened I've forgotten). I personally want to see more kuhnas and lakuhndras. Those pets are super popular right now and I think people would definitely offer on those right away.


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Re: .:Concerning The Trading Post:.

Postby Mojave » 05/30/2014 10:46 PM

I have to agree with Talcen on several points.

Put a deadline for apps up with the pet. I for one have quite forgotten about him amid RL events even though I want to apply.

Leave breedables for the Auctions and Alonia Prizes and put up customs of other pets in the trading post. For me personally I take a long time to assign characters to breedables because they will require more work to develop for use since they'll be breeding. But if a character isn't going to have kids, I can come up with ideas quicker.

A turn off for me is that whoever is operating Morey is the one who decides gets the pet based on if he/she feels there's enough detail from an applicant. I'm not a good writer, you can look at all of my roleplays and see that. I still enjoy it when i'm not worn out from being on a computer typing all day for work. So I get turned off by the idea of having to impress some unknown person with a skill I lack.
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Re: .:Concerning The Trading Post:.

Postby Shieba » 05/30/2014 11:18 PM

I agree with a lot of what was said. Several things turn me away from applying:

- No deadline. As Talcen and others said, the wait time is horrible and way, way too long.

- The way Morey works. I somewhat agree with Mojave, though my problems is a different one: Morey picks whoever seems to give enough detail to the personality/who pleases Morey the most. But why should I develop a completely fleshed-out personality for a pet I will likely not get if several people apply? I can't just pin characters on some other pet; it doesn't work that way for me. So the more people apply, the less likely I am to do so and "the more" means 3+ for me. I find it incredibly disheartening to come up with a plot for a pet, only to then have to dump it because I don't get the pet. In fact, I find the whole system bad. Why are the ideas of one person "better" than the ones of another? Shouldn't really all plots/ideas/characters be worth the same? It's like Morey says "Yeah, you might have gotten a huge plot idea there, but sorry, I personally don't like it so I give the pet to someone else." I find this very, very demotivating which is why I would like to turn Morey either into a raffle or just shut him down completely. If I bid for a pet in an auction, I don't have to try to write a plot and a character out yet; I mostly only have a faint idea and I don't find it as bad then if I don't win the pet. But Morey? Nothing but REALLY demotivating for me.



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Re: .:Concerning The Trading Post:.

Postby Jaykobell » 05/30/2014 11:28 PM

I think people very much misunderstand Morey's purpose.

Talcen, what you stated about people waiting to see who will offer so they may offer better pets: that is not what Morey is about. Morey is about distributing pets to those who will use them. It is about giving pets to those who could use them. At its core, Morey was meant to be a trading business "for the poor": where you can give very little and still get a very nice pet despite the gap in value.

Those who offer breedables and huge amounts of KS have no better chance to earn the pet than those who can only give a common Seasonal pet with a little bit of KS. Ultimately, Morey decides on an owner based on what they will do with the pet: and not what they can offer for it. That is exactly why Morey categorically asks for you to type a personality: were the pets up there for regular trading, there would be no need for that system.

Zein, concerning that aspect, you are not judged by the quality or quantity of your writing. You are judged by the character you offer, for the most part. I don't know what other things Morey looks into, but you have no less chances to win than someone who is judged to be a "good" or a "better" writer than you. Everyone here has a different style and a different kind of creativity, and they are not pit against each other for the judging process.

Perhaps a deadline would be a good idea: I do agree with Talcen with the fact that people typically work faster when presented with a solid deadline.

I'm iffy on getting rid of the "holding limit", i.e., "you have to keep the pet for a certain amount of time before you can trade it". This is because — and this affects a lot of people, so I don't want anyone here thinking I'm accusing X and Y members : | — Evelon members tend to get pets and then put them for sale very soon after. People breed and then put the babies up for sale; people buy customs and then put them up for sale weeks later.

But see, it ties back to what I said before: Morey is a poor man's version of trades. It is meant to give people who have few or little resources to ability to get a nice pet that they otherwise wouldn't be able to get. You are not meant to make a profit from the pet by selling it: you are meant to use it and to RP it.

That is also why I disagree with taking off breedables from Morey. I personally don't necessarily use my breedables to breed; not only that, again: poor man's trading. New members could come and apply for a breedable without having to be intimidated by the 500-1000KS prices in the trades, or the "I will only trade for other breedables of equal value" clauses everywhere.

I think a problem stems from the fact Morey may be an outdated system. Back when things like Kuhnas and breedables were rare and the community was still growing, it could thrive by letting people offer few resources for rare pets. But with Evelon's community quickly running out of new members, all we have left are old, established members who already have all those customs and all those breedables, and who are of age that they can use money to buy them anyway.

And also, disclaimer: don't take my words as facts that will happen, I am not in charge of Morey. I'm only saying this because of the misconceptions that people do have over Morey, and why it works this way. But I am not in charge of this system, so I'm only passing by, here, and giving suggestions.
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Re: .:Concerning The Trading Post:.

Postby Mojave » 05/31/2014 12:15 AM

Shieba actually said what I was trying to communicate about morey picking who he/she likes better.
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Re: .:Concerning The Trading Post:.

Postby Jaykobell » 05/31/2014 12:36 AM

Admittedly, we posted at the same time.

Morey's purpose absolutely does not try to make anyone's stories and characters any worse than whoever wins the pet. There is absolutely no malicious intent behind it, nor is it meant to make anyone feel like a lesser writer, or what have you. Art, in any form, is subjective. If Morey didn't like your idea, what makes you think no one else did? It isn't Morey's purpose to pass judgement on the quality of your writing, story or character in a malicious way.

Admittedly, RPing activity and the amount of rare pets may also come into effect. If I applied, I doubt my chances would be all that grand considering I have a million and one pets, and how I'm not necessarily the most active.

Like I said, this is one of the many reasons why I feel like Morey suffers from being an old feature more than anything else. Again, the point of Morey was to give rare pets to those who didn't have any. Even a newbie with their 100KS could offer 50KS and still get the Lucain, because they're new, have no breedables, and will probably come to appreciate it a lot more than 99% of us. Because again, 99% of us are already old and establish members. Do some of us need another Lucain to add to our pile of 23942394? No, we don't. So to begin with, the interest in the pet fails to come because we already have this kind of pet, just not with the same color palette.

Also from the fact people used to RP more back then. Pets were still rare and not very many limited/retired ones were around at the time. But since resources were limited, you had to offer the promise that you would use the pet. That was the point of Morey, as I understood it.

Please, do not think we sit behind the screen nitpicking at grammatical and spelling errors while we laugh at your "cliché" characters and stories. That is absolutely not Morey's purpose. Like I said, I don't take care of this feature anymore, so honestly I don't know every point Morey takes into consideration when deciding who gets a pet.

Basically, Morey is a feature with no member base to please. We have very few newbies, and those who do join do not come back. We have a few established members, but who do not RP much anymore and/or who have no real interest in the pets offered because we already have many of them.
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Re: .:Concerning The Trading Post:.

Postby Shieba » 05/31/2014 1:04 AM

I fully understand that, Shrewdie, but even if it's not intended that way, it's what happens.

So what if I have 34294302 Lucain? What if the Lucain Morey offers gives me a grand plot idea for him/her? For that plot idea, my other Lucain are "worthless", so I have as much interest in it like a newbie owning none. However, of course I will not apply immediately - I will apply at the latest date possible (if I remember, given that deadlines are far away or none at all) to see how many others have applied to judge my chances.

Even if Morey's intent is not to upset anyone, you have to admit that it obviously happens if you lose a pet you have gotten attached to. If someone makes me flesh out a whole character and plot for a pet, not getting the pet hurts much more than not getting a pet I have a vague idea for and see in a trade/auction. This holds especially true with the long waiting times since I wait and wait and wait because I am eager for my plot - and then, in the end, get let down. So applying as late as possible is THE way to go, obviously.

I want to state that this is not a problem just for old members. In fact, imagine this happening to a newbie/poor person who doesn't have ten million Lucain? Clearly, it would be even more disheartening for them, which is why I don't understand the system at all.

But in the end, this is not just a problem of Morey, but also of a lot of the user-run trading outpost topics. I find the lack of interest in all of them very understandable. Waiting times + a lot of sadness just make the whole system bad.



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Your voice tears me asunder
Love me before the last petal falls






However cold the wind and rain
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Re: .:Concerning The Trading Post:.

Postby Jaykobell » 05/31/2014 1:20 AM

I can and do understand where you're coming from and what you're saying, because I did have that happen to me before — although not from Morey. But, now that I'm typing this, it did happen once from an Outpost, but that was... from a person's bias, I feel like, more so than anything else.

I'm not trying to defend the system per se, but I want to at least explain the logic behind it, or whatever system did create Morey. I don't want people to think it's trying to put anyone's works down, or what have you. That's all I wanted to say.

And yes, I also understand the concept of getting a character specifically for a pet. While it happens to me only very, very, very, very rarely, it has happened before. But, at the end of the day, I look more at the character than at the pet form itself, so if I ever did lose a Morey pet, I would probably do my best to stick the character on something else — maybe just a temporary form until I can get my own custom. So I can relate, but it's not an issue I particularly encounter often.

Morey is an old system that, like a few others, could use a revamp. I couldn't even really tell you how Morey truly worked, because I wasn't around for that. As far as I remember... Baal basically retired Morey at the time she introduced Vance's auctions. After that, members who got the A licenses could open their own Outposts, Baal would actually make custom pets, occasionally, for those who had received their A licenses. They could either keep the pets, or put them up in their Outpost. Very old system.

I think Morey's concept comes from the fact a lot of people put a lot of emphasis on people using the pets. I am 99% certain some people don't want to trade with me because I already have a million pets and seemingly very few characters (honestly it's because I'm too lazy to type them anymore... since, you know; RPing alone and all : | Who needs to know besides myself, pft). They either humor me by listing some pets, or they just simply say that they saw nothing.

There's even been contests before with people needing to provide personalities in order to get the pet. It's an Evelon mentality as old as the beginning of time, and so that's why Morey's system focuses on it a lot. That is also why I have a few pets in my own (dead) Outpost that I'd try to put there because I would genuinely like to see those particular pets used, rather than trading them and then seeing them in another trade topic weeks later. I'm not too terribly picky, but some pets are from plot or crack breedings and I want friends and people to enjoy them and use them. And I know I'm not the only one who thinks this way.

Anyway, I didn't really plan/want my post to explode into this kind of discussion, I just wanted to... appease (?) the masses by saying that this is how Morey works currently, and that there are no malicious intents behind it.
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Re: .:Concerning The Trading Post:.

Postby Shieba » 05/31/2014 1:37 AM

I understand where you come from, but I feel like the current way works against people using the pet, even when they get it and that's because of the lack of deadline. I dunno; that might just be me not being able to work with replacement pets, but if I have a plot idea, I want to write/do the plot. Three months of waiting later, that idea will probably have fallen through. This is why I feel like especially breedable pets need to have a quick deadline because obviously, no one can use replacement pets well there if you want to breed the Lucain you applied for.

And while there have been such contests before and I find the idea behind them not bad, I feel like Morey always requires me to write a lot and get into detail. I know, quality is more important, but I have rarely (ever?) seen the one writing five sentences get the pet. I think the only contest where I ever enjoyed writing a personality, though, was the one for the breeding desk lady as it had keys (= an item) and not a pet I had to pin an idea on as prize.

Also sad to hear your Outpost is dead (offtopic FTW) because I had still hopes for the bunny. But that means I can find a different mate for mine then, lawl. Also, I am just like you and don't even type personalities out anymore and I doubt anyone doesn't trade anymore with me because of it? But I'm not sure. Who knows?



I know my dreams are made of you
Of you and only for you
Your ocean pulls me under
Your voice tears me asunder
Love me before the last petal falls






However cold the wind and rain
I'll be there to ease your pain
However cruel the mirrors of sin
Remember beauty is found within




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Re: .:Concerning The Trading Post:.

Postby .:Trader_Morey:. » 05/31/2014 7:20 AM

Alright. I will take some things into consideration. However there are some things I also intend to clear up for folks.

First of all your right. I needed to stick to times. This round I did as an experiment to see how many of you chaps would apply. No one did until I was thinking about taking the lucain down and sending it to my brother. Generally though pets are up for one month to give you time to think on what you would do with them. If you would rather less time I could halve it and allow you two weeks to apply.

Second breedables are suppose to be rare. So you wont see much of them in general. Because of that rarity I don't intend to remove them completely. Also I don't have a stock of every kind of pet. Pets such as Ilos, Diosol and the unique Sickles wont ever be up unless one is donated to me. There are limitations placed on those creatures by the Evelon Zoo and so I can not help but abide by them. However on the off chance I do have one of such creatures donated to me, I will let you know. Custom experiments are entirely out of the question however.

Third I am very sad to hear that you feel that way Mojave. Even though you were very close to getting the Kundra that you had applied for. Just because someone can't write well does not mean they can not come up with a good idea. And let me tell you its very hard to choose one soul over another. I care for all of you and do my best to accommodate. However I am getting up there in years and am not as good at fallowing modern trends as the youth. This is why I asked about how you folks feel.

If you can make your things short and sweet then I can and will consider it. Summarize what you feel like a good book.
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Re: .:Concerning The Trading Post:.

Postby Mojave » 05/31/2014 2:54 PM

I know the system isn't meant to be demotivating, it's to make sure the pet goes to a home where it won't sit in a zoo pen and rot. Which I am guilty of. I never realized Morey may look at how active an applicant is to make a decision. However, the winner is still chosen based on one human's personal opinion about an application. A ton of detail in one post doesn't guaruntee that person will roleplay with it. Again, this is just me, but some of my pets have long info posts (which is why they're in my imp docs instead of my zoo pen) and I rarely roleplay them. This of course goes back to the possibility that Morey chooses more active users as winners which I understand. This is a roleplay forum. My point, however, is just to clarify why it's a turn off for me. I am not a good writer, I do not enjoy writing. Most of my roleplays take place in my head or in art i never post. So I don't find it appealing to apply for a pet with an idea that is already running rampant in my imagination only to be let down and be forced to find a different vessel for the character in my head. And just for the record, I don't take the loss of the Kundra personally since her character was so easy to pin on a common kamo kuhndra. :)

As for the species of pets available, I can understand putting breedables in here for newbies or underage players that can't buy a breedable. However, as Shrewd said, there aren't a lot of newbies, we're pretty much old established members. And there are always breedables for sale in the Advertise thread for ks which are quite easy to earn. But if breedables aren't fully taken out, it's not going to bother me, honestly. What I would like to see more of is custom site and maybe event species. Like sahounds, nyghtmares, wockees, werebettas, etc. While custom sickles would be awesome, I wasn't referring to them at all. Lol
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Re: .:Concerning The Trading Post:.

Postby Silverin » 05/31/2014 5:47 PM

The pet species thing was not directed directly at any one person but everyone as a whole. The staff make the pets.

On a side note its not just one person. :l Morey asks for opinions of more than one person. So its not just one person deciding.

Also what Morey said in the first post still stands and he may still go poof.
He also might add a poll later.
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Re: .:Concerning The Trading Post:.

Postby ToxicShadow » 05/31/2014 6:12 PM

Regarding the options of what to do with a pet that doesn't have a lot of applicants:

Honestly, I think it is entirely fair to choose one of the applicants that made the effort to apply, regardless of how many applicants there are. I've expressed before, not every pet interests everyone for some reason or another. Maybe they don't like that species or have a lot of them already, maybe they don't like the colors, and so forth. I think the current Lucain is neat, but I have no ideas for a Lucain that looks like a fox. That's just me, it's not my style. So, in my opinion, because it does not wow me, personally, I don't have the right to apply for it and take that chance from someone that likes it more. (Though I was tempted to apply, just to be like, "There is interest!," since I really want Morey to keep going.)

I also don't think a lack of interest in one pet should dictate rather or not Morey shuts down. I don't think the Trader's Outposts, as a whole, can be judged based on the popularity of one pet. If one person likes a pet, I think that's a success. The Lakundra before it was more popular, as some pets will always be, compared to others for various reasons.

I do agree that a deadline for pets should be set from the very start, because I do think it would help motivate people more. Usually, I think inspiration can come quickly. I usually know right away if I like a pet enough to make use of it or if it will find a place among my characters. Ideally, I think two weeks would be better than a month, as well. It makes the process that much faster, as I know waiting can become disheartening.

As far as judging:

Maybe I'm odd, but I honestly have no issues with Morey expecting us to tell them about what character plans we have. There are no rules stating how much or how little and, speaking from the time when I ran a Trader's Outpost, I passed judgement by what character ideas would be most interesting, not who wrote the most. Or, in some cases, who I thought would get the most use out of a pet or who might not have had a lot of pets. I imagine Morey is the same way in judgement. I know it can be disheartening to not get a pet once a character is developed, yet I think just having the opportunity to receive a pretty pet for (generally) less than market price sort of outweighs the bad. I'd rather we keep getting chances at pretty pets than be upset about not getting one.

Albeit, yeah, I wrote a lot in my most recent application, but I get over zealous some times. I don't always write a lot, I just wrote what I felt at the time, and I happened to develop a lot of ideas when I barely started writing my basic idea down.  (I'm also used to applying for painted pets on Neopets from back in the day, where you would apply to adopt rare pets from other users. It causes some of my long applications, since people there use to expect introductions, personalities, plans, introductions to other characters, art, and so on.)  I thought other users ideas were just a neat as my own for the Lakundra, and would have been just as happy had it gone to other users that applied.

Idea for judging:

Maybe, if some users are not happy that it feels like only one person is judging them/their ideas, we could have guest judges? Like, we can have a thread where average users volunteer to give their opinions about the applicants/applications, which one they like best and why, maybe with their second favorite noted, or what they weren't happy with in one. All privately sent to Morey, of course. Which may give a more broad taste for judgement? Obviously, it would be down to Morey's decision, in the end, but other opinions might be helpful.

I wouldn't recommend more than two guest judges for each, though, since I am aware that in the roleplay contest for breeding room keys, which had a number of judges, it didn't work out well. I believe many of the judges didn't get their written opinions in on time and what not. I would also almost think it fair to announce who the guest judges are, in case users want opinions on their work, what someone liked or didn't like. Or they could be secret, either way. If there are several volunteers, they could be picked at random, raffle style? Or if they just judged, and others are interested, they aren't chosen for the one right after?

Summing my thoughts up:

I really, really hope Morey stays around, because I do adore the feature, even more than custom auctions. Definitely enough for me to log in and type this up, even though I have been rather inactive in the recent weeks for personal reasons. I felt like I had to post and fight for Morey's existence.
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Re: .:Concerning The Trading Post:.

Postby Mojave » 05/31/2014 7:11 PM

I also don't want Morey shut down. It is a great feature that most likely needs to be revamped. As for how to revamp it, I don't have the first clue. As Shrewd said earlier, this was set up way back long ago and Evelon and the players have changed a lot since then (imo).
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