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Do you like the idea Kyrit pitched (see linked post)

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Total votes : 18

Changing the Post Minimum

Postby Kyrit » 05/05/2017 1:25 PM

Update; Kreepy got a word counter running on the forums! We're giving it some time for people to test run. In the meantime, check out this post and let us know if you like this idea or not.




Sometimes it can be difficult to determine what exactly constitutes for a sentence. It gets difficult for staff verifying that all posts in a breeding or event roleplay (since those are the only ones we heavily monitor) meet the 5 sentence minimum at times. As such, it was brought up during staff discussion that perhaps a word count minimum would be better and we could link to a few free word counting websites, such as Word Counter and Word Counter Tool for users to check that their posts meet the minimum.

This would also mean staff can easily copy and paste a post in to these websites for length verification if they feel it looks a bit short. Users that do make use of the tools would also know that their posts will not cause a problem down the line.

If we do switch to this way of minimum posts though, we have to decide on that that good minimum would be. Do we go for 50 words? 75? 100? The current staff proposed limit is 75, but we also haven't done any trials on what length that usually seems to even out to. Before we move in to the final stages of deciding if we're going to switch to this method, we'd like to get user feedback on it. After all, perhaps you guys, as the ones actually RPing the most, would prefer that we stick to a sentence minimum.

(Using the two tools linked above, this post came out to be 255 words.)





Ohana means family.
Family means nobody gets left behind, or forgotten.
Even as a pirate, I understand that.
You, my family, are my greatest treasure .
I won't let that be stolen.



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Re: Changing the Post Minimum

Postby Saahs » 05/05/2017 6:24 PM

For plain roleplays (i.e. ones that currently requre 5 sentences), I think either a min 50 word or 75 word limit would do nicely. I checked some of my own rp posts and dumped the first 5-6 sentences into a counter, and they mostly ranged between 50 and 70 words each. And for ones that require a minimum of 10 sentences, 100 words instead sounds like a fair exchange, or even bump it up to 125 words?

In my opinion, I think a limit based on words rather than sentences would be easier at least on the nerves. Tossing a post into a word counter is a lot less of a hassle than counting sentences and hoping you don't lost track. Or maybe that's just me... I lose track of numbers really easy. :T And it would definitely take out the headache of deciding whether a sentence is big enough to actually count as a sentence, for normal users as well as staff.



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I cannot tell.
We came all this way,
But now comes the day
To bid you, farewell!

I bid you all, a very fond farewell.


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Re: Changing the Post Minimum

Postby Mojave » 05/05/2017 7:46 PM

I'm okay with switching to word count, but I say 50 words in regular rps like the shops and anything that's not war/event/otherwise 10 sentence min req. The reason is that there are times in any story (amount varies, but heavily with me) where there's just not anything really to say because of the situation. Weather two characters are sitting together on a couch playing 20 questions, having a rapidfire conversation, or it's an action scene and what happens next is heavily dependant on that one action by the other party. It gets pretty tough to figure out what to fill the rest of the min req with sometimes, so I'd like to keep the wordcount low just for those moments. We can always go over the min req, afterall.

As for events, things that currently have a 10 sentence min req, I'd say 100 words would be fine.

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Pardon, me for yelling and telling you green gardens
Are not what's growing in my psyche, it's a different me
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Full of tidal waves, suicidal crazed lions
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Re: Changing the Post Minimum

Postby FieldsofIris » 05/05/2017 9:30 PM

As a newer member, the sentence requirement thing was easy to adjust to for regular RPing, but I was unaware that there were different sentence requirements for different types of posts!

For me personally, I like the idea of a 100 word count limit, just because the majority of my posts are around or above that area, anyhow. Also, it's a nice, round number that is easy to remember. I feel like 50 would be kinda low for RPing outside of the market and such.

That all being said, even if the limit is much lower, that wouldn't affect how I post, so maybe a lower word count requirement would be better? (Sorry for talking in circles, I'm just kinda thinking while typing.)


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Re: Changing the Post Minimum

Postby Skeetzybug » 05/06/2017 12:33 AM

Honestly, to me, 100 words is nothing - but I have experience over the years to know that is NOT the case for everyone. My best friend often struggles to get close to that. I think 75 is a good medium, personally. It would be good to give it a test drive, perhaps? If it feels high it could be dropped to 50.

He sleeps alone,
He needs no army where he's headed cause he knows
That they're just ghosts
And they can't hurt him if he can't see them
And I don't know
If in the morning I will be here and if so,
Let it be known
That I was worthy,
I was worthy,
I was worthy,
I was..
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Re: Changing the Post Minimum

Postby MillietheWarrior » 05/06/2017 1:06 AM

I'm extremely tired so hopefully I don't pass over anything that's important or been said;

Personally, doing five sentences minimum is the easiest. I don't want to paste each paragraph into a word counter. I have such limited time (talks about limited time while writing a loooong post lololol) that writing our pre-done RPs, chunking them up, then pasting them takes time and then adding another step...it wastes a lot of time. Personally, I'm not for it at all. I think adding word count makes things more difficult (but again, that's a personal observation so maybe it works for others). As an English major, sentences themselves are incredibly tricky and I understand that they are difficult to judge. "Yes, please" can be a sentence. If it's not one word, I think it counts as one. Usually for me, to be safe, I chunk short sentences together and just count as one.

I use semi-colons and hyphens in my writing to denote breaks in speech or thought while keeping things related, so I tend to put that whole particular chunk of writing together as one, even if it has a period in it to denote a senate sentence (i.e. "Can we just-" he sighed dramatically. "-stop running red lights?" Or "the cactus was small and green; it was possibly the most beautiful thing I had ever seen in my life." Despite the obvious way they are connected, still count it as one, regardless) So my thought is for users to be better safe than not enough sentences by doing the same. It's been established that semi-colons, despite in many instances denoting a similar line of thinking but more than one sentence, do not count as adequate punctuation to constitute two separate sentences. And although probably not established or touched in, I believe hyphens should be the same (sentence breaks should be counted all together to form one sentence).

If you want to do a word minimum, just say that counted sentences must be full sentences, not chunks. The English language is hard to police so even something small and simple like "Me too" could, in some technicalities, be a sentence though some may not see it that way. The way I see it, things could just be left as they are if users count smaller sentences together as one and make their post six or seven sentences to be correct and in the safe side. ^__^

Sorry if this seems weird or convoluted; I'm so exhausted I can't see straight but I wanted to get the word vomit opinion out there lol

I love adventurous tales like that. That uplifting feeling that comes from seeing unknown lands and the knowledge that you came across—nothing can replace it! It opens a path from which self-confidence, experience, and important friendships—from the sharing of life or death situations—are born! But hearing it just isn’t the same. I want to create my own magnificent story!



A great adventure!


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Re: Changing the Post Minimum

Postby ToxicShadow » 05/06/2017 3:12 AM

It didn't occur to me until I read Millie's post, but having to check posts with a word counter prior to posting would also create difficulties for users that use phones, tablets, or similar devices to post roleplays. I have used both my phone and my Nintendo DS to post roleplay responses in a pinch, breeding replies and regular replies. With a word count limit enforced, I would have to then count every single word prior to posting on these devices, which is WAY more work than counting a few sentences. At least, with my phone, my copy and paste function doesn't work for anything, so trying to copy and paste what I've written into a word counter just wouldn't be plausible. And what about users that only have limited data? Having to open a word counter, then process the words, requires additional data usage. (And, unless they have a word counter already bookmarked, loading up a search engine to find one takes more data, too.)

Originally, I was of the opinion that a switch over to a word count wouldn't negatively impact things too much but, with this realization, I'd much rather stick to sentence limits. I'd much prefer still being able to use my handheld devices to roleplay, if need be.
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Re: Changing the Post Minimum

Postby zapdragon555 » 05/06/2017 11:57 AM

I voted for 75, but I do think the 50 for normal areas 100 for war areas is best!
Also, this is more a question for Kreepy, but... I don't suppose there would be an easy way to code in a word counter for the Post A Reply page? That just automatically counts your words for you and displays them as you write them?
You're a door-without-a-key,
A field-without-a-fence.
You made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
If she comes circling back,
We'll end where we'd begun,
Like two pennies on the train track
The train crushed into one,
Or if I'm a crown without a king,
If I'm a broken open seed,
If I come without a thing,
Then I come with all I need.
No boat out in the blue,
No place to rest your head
The trap I set for you seems to have
Caught my leg instead.

I do not exist. I do not exist. I do not exist.


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Re: Changing the Post Minimum

Postby SpringsSong » 05/06/2017 12:39 PM

If we could code a word-counter into the reply boxes (both Quick Reply and the actual Reply), I would be for changing the sentence limit to a word count limits.  But, without that, I'd be more for keeping the sentence limit, for the reasons that Millie and Toxic mentioned (since there have been times when I've had to use my phone as well to post roleplay replies).
Maybe I'm foolish, maybe I'm blind
Thinking I can see through this to see what's behind
Got no way to prove it, so maybe I'm lying
Take a look in the mirror, what do you see
Can you see it clearer, or are you deceived in what you believe?
Don't ask my opinion, don't ask me to lie
Then beg for forgiveness for making you cry
'cause I'm no prophet or Messiah
You should go looking somewhere higher

I'm only human, I make mistakes
I'm only human, I do what I can
I'm only human, that's all it takes to put the blame on me

Don't put the blame on me

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Re: Changing the Post Minimum

Postby Kyrit » 05/06/2017 9:52 PM

I think I might have been misunderstood a bit in saying that we could link users to word counting websites.

This step would not be mandatory. We'd just be linking you guys to what the staff uses to quickly verify your posts. That way if you feel like maybe your post is looking a bit on the short side, you're welcome to verify how many words it is before posting it.

I feel most people would be fine with just eyeballing the length of their posts, honestly. For example, take the following string of "hey", verified to be typed 75 times for a total of 75 words;

hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey.

On my screen at least, this takes up exactly three full lines of text on the forums. That's 75 three character words, so it's a good consideration of what to eyeball as minimum (granted, single character words do exist, but I doubt your post is going to be all single character words). Anyways, if we do end up switching over to a word based limit, I'd be fine with also posting some visual references to help users eyeball their posts. Honestly though, I have faith that the majority of posts users make definitely make it to at least 50 words (though 75 seems to be in the lead, but even still, I'm also fine with going through and sampling posts across the forums to get an idea of length as well).

This post wasn't supposed to be so long, but I did just want to at least post and let users know that no one's going to force them to use a word counter. The only way we'd force you is if it was built in to the forums, and just like everyone else, I have no clue how hard or easy that is for Kreepy, so I ain't speakin for her there. XD


Edit;

After deciding to do a quick test using all the roleplays in the breeding area as guinea pigs, I only found a single user that posted below 75 posts (and their posts varied anywhere from typically 60-90 words). I didn't find a single post under 50 words, and the vast majority were 100+ words in length. Obviously the breedings don't count for every roleplay, but users are likely to make quick posts there for the sake of getting a room done.





Ohana means family.
Family means nobody gets left behind, or forgotten.
Even as a pirate, I understand that.
You, my family, are my greatest treasure .
I won't let that be stolen.



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Re: Changing the Post Minimum

Postby ToxicShadow » 05/06/2017 10:45 PM

* I will note, for other users, that votes can be changed. I've already revoted from my original stance.

Enforcing a word count but then saying users don't have to use a word counter, that doesn't exactly add up, though. I mean, just eyeballing your posts is a risky choice to make. What if you're three words short of a minimum? That COULD be overlooked, but then that doesn't follow Evelon's very strict ruling when it comes to those sorts of things. (Miss a breeding deadline or contest by 30 seconds or five minutes? Nope, you're not in, so stretching rules for this wouldn't make sense.) Especially when it comes to breeding posts (where users are fined and given minor warnings for not having posts that are long enough), or even market place posts. Honestly, there is sometimes not a whole lot to be said when a character pops into the marketplace (some of my more recent marketplace posts run at about 65 words, especially in the Lone Saloon because... submitting hunts is kind of an unusual concept) depending on the shop, or even in breedings, like Mojave said. Some roleplays are two characters interacting in very short bursts, which I sometimes prefer, if they are having a proper conversation.

Optionally, we could just not be picky about sentence fragments in roleplays IF they are roughly the length of a sentence? Like five words or more? It's usually sentence fragments that causes posts to not be considered five sentences, so we could just not be as strict about super proper sentence structure, as long as things make sense. I mean, "She laughed." That is a proper sentence, and that's just two words. Tying ourselves up in knots over sentence fragments that are reasonably the length of actual sentences isn't really worth it.

If it looks like we're sticking to a word limit, in spite of it being risky for those that use handheld devices to post (because checking a post count would be difficult), then I would definitely prefer no more than 50 words as the minimum for non-war posts (and 100 for war posts). Or actually manage to code in a word counter before changing the roleplay requirement to a word count, since that would make the most sense.

OR we could do both? As in, each post must be either 5 sentences OR a minimum of so many words? That way, it covers all bases. If a particular user uses fragments or happens to forget a sentence, so they don't have five full sentences, then their word count could be checked.

Or... we could try to coach the users that often use fragments and don't make five sentences? I don't know if we've tried that yet. Honestly, we don't have VERY many users that have this issue. Or, if it HAS happened, it's just an accident on someone's part when they are usually quite good about things.
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Re: Changing the Post Minimum

Postby Freezair » 05/06/2017 11:05 PM

I AGREE WIFF DAT DERE MILLIE.

Seriously though, I'm in favor of keeping the steps required for a post down as low as possible. Honestly, even eyeballing the "right amount" seems like a challenge, both due to the fact that different words of different lengths means paragraph formatting is never even, and because differently-formatted display devices will show posts differently.

And... that is what I have to say. Mmyup.

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Re: Changing the Post Minimum

Postby Kreepy » 05/07/2017 1:43 AM

Also voted for somewhere between 75-100 because just looking at the average length of something that range feels like what most people are going with for a 'bare minimum' amount. Plus the amount of times the question 'does this count as 5 sentences' comes up in the mod chat is too much and I feel bad for crow, aka the poor soul who mostly has to peruse threads and check sentence counts.

zapdragon555 wrote:I voted for 75, but I do think the 50 for normal areas 100 for war areas is best!
Also, this is more a question for Kreepy, but... I don't suppose there would be an easy way to code in a word counter for the Post A Reply page? That just automatically counts your words for you and displays them as you write them?


Leeeeemmmee... get back to you on that. Working with the phpbb template is a goddamn nightmare but xD I'm pretty sure, if a dynamic counter doesn't work, I might be able to code a pop-up alert instead? Gimme a few to research and play about with it.

If I did something like this, a way to see your word count on the post page, would that be something that people would want?

Edit: ... Ahaha wow okay that was so much easier than I thought. x'D I'd definitely want to simplify it to just "Word Count: x" or just a number but yeah. Definitely possible.
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Re: Changing the Post Minimum

Postby zapdragon555 » 05/07/2017 2:24 AM

Nice, Kreepy!! I say this is a great solution!
You're a door-without-a-key,
A field-without-a-fence.
You made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
If she comes circling back,
We'll end where we'd begun,
Like two pennies on the train track
The train crushed into one,
Or if I'm a crown without a king,
If I'm a broken open seed,
If I come without a thing,
Then I come with all I need.
No boat out in the blue,
No place to rest your head
The trap I set for you seems to have
Caught my leg instead.

I do not exist. I do not exist. I do not exist.


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Re: Changing the Post Minimum

Postby SpringsSong » 05/07/2017 10:24 AM

With that being a possibility, I would be for changing the sentence limit to a word limit.  I'd previously voted for 75 words, and I think that's about what I'll vote for again--for the war area, however, I would probably go for whatever double the limit in the regular areas is (as that is currently how things are now--5 sentences minimum in regular RPs, 10 in the war areas.  So, if we went to word counts instead, and went for 75 as the minimum, I'd say make the minimum for the war RP areas 150ish).
Maybe I'm foolish, maybe I'm blind
Thinking I can see through this to see what's behind
Got no way to prove it, so maybe I'm lying
Take a look in the mirror, what do you see
Can you see it clearer, or are you deceived in what you believe?
Don't ask my opinion, don't ask me to lie
Then beg for forgiveness for making you cry
'cause I'm no prophet or Messiah
You should go looking somewhere higher

I'm only human, I make mistakes
I'm only human, I do what I can
I'm only human, that's all it takes to put the blame on me

Don't put the blame on me

"Human", Rag'n'Bone Man

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