[Atoli01]

Keeping that in mind is why I suggested the whole limited-time type deal. Even if people trade a key to a user who already has multiples, the key will still have a limited time on it. In that way, we can keep the key numbers relatively low and hopefully not end up with this many keys floating around at a time again.

That being said, I can still see Mojave's point.

[Mojave]

We actually have been doing key restraint stuff on numbers of keys. Having it so that if you have more than one or two keys of one type means you can't get another this round or can't enter the raffle.

And that's great and all. But there still aren't any more keys being released for those of us that actually want to use them. I understand the hesitation to release more because of the 60+ keys already laying around rotting. Perhaps there should be some kind of incentive to get them used? Like maybe a season where all litters are maxed (preferably if there are two people involved in the breeding)? That way once a good number are used, we can get more out, and hopefully get the breeding scene more active again.

[Thunder]

The thing about establishing a time limit is that doing so is basically like a return to the old system where you had to finish your breeding room in x amount of time, or else you didn't get babies. People wanted to move away from that system, which is why the keys got introduced in the first place, so I really don't know if a time limit would be the best move. Unless I'm understanding something wrong here.

We already have raffles in place so people who don't own keys (and the people who don't own keys are usually also the people who use their keys in a timely manner) can get them. So what if we just increased the number of those raffles? I feel like that would be a simpler/more effective solution than time limits. Not to mention it would also be really hard to keep track of time limits on keys that get traded around (there isn't really anything to keep people from trading keys to one another), which is another reason why I'm hesitant about the time limit idea.

I can understand Mojave's train of thought; I think it's too much of a generalization/assumption to say "people don't want to use their keys right now", especially taking into consideration the fact that we got so many entrants in the previous key raffle. Disregarding individuals who are merely hoarding their keys, there could be many reasons why people haven't started up many breeding rooms lately: being too busy (which is my situation right now), still in the process of writing the breeding, maybe waiting to obtain potions to use, etc.

As for the people who have a bunch of keys and are apparently complaining about not being able to buy more keys...dude. Just use your keys. Simple as that.

[ToxicShadow]

Breeding Key Input:

I'm probably one of those people that other users consider a, "hoarder," of keys. Mainly because, for awhile there, I was sitting on five or so Paragon keys, while I am currently sitting on three of them. Of course, one also has to consider how I got those keys. Half of them were from key swaps, where I traded other types of keys to obtain them, or other trades. Why do I trade for Paragon keys? Because I already have two A Licenses in other breedable classes, so trading them away for a key type that I want to use to obtain a higher licenses class in only makes sense to me. Thus, it seems like I am hoarding that type of key.


Additionally, I have some keys I am not using because I intend to use them for specific breedings. I have promised other users the use of the keys, but we either are not at a plot point where we can use them (for lifemates and such) or because the other user isn't currently available to do the planned breeding. If I promise to do a breeding with someone, though, I don't just want to go and use that key. It doesn't seem fair to promise the use to someone, then go ahead and use it with someone else. In my breeder's listing, I even have that listed where I record how many of what item I have on hand:

Paragon Keys: 3
+ 1 reserved for Hikari x Kirin.
+ 1 reserved for Klein x Meikyuu.

Thus, really, I only have one Paragon key not directly spoken for. (Which might be spoken for, since I promised to breed with Kyrit as something of a birthday gift, when we both got the chance, but want to let her choose the key type.)

I doubt anyone can say that I am not breeding, as I am probably one of the people still doing so when given that chance, although computer issues and real life stuff has gotten in the way of it some. (I'm actually still on hiatus for reasons. xD) If you look in the Paragon Breeding Roleplay Graveyard, I participated in the last three Paragon breedings (spanning from the end of May to September) recorded there. Aside from rooms I have been in (and used my keys for), no one has bred any Paragon since April. Even though keys were released in late April and 4 more were raffled off in September.

ALL that being said, I would not be happy if someone tried to tell me I absolutely had to use a key I paid my own earned KS for by within a certain amount of time. (Especially if this was a key that I was online for and made any effort to purchase during a normal release, since that means I also had to plan around other things to be online during that release to get it.)If I promised to use a key with someone, but something comes up, I'll hold the key. I don't feel like I should be penalized for that, especially because, aside from reserved keys, I am breeding.

I honestly don't have issues, though, with there being rules against me buying a new Paragon Key directly since it is my choice to reserve key uses. I think, if a limit is implemented (outside of raffles) that it should be only if you have two keys of one type, you can't purchase another, because that gives users a little wiggle room. If you have one key, I don't see much harm in being able to purchase only one more. 11 out of 20 users that own Lucain keys have two or more keys, and there are some key holders that aren't even active right now.

What I think would help:

I think a lot of the reason why users don't breed right away when they obtain a key is because they are uncertain if they are capable of finishing the room within the set two week time limit. Many of my recent breedings pretty much went RIGHT UP to the end of the time limit and, not going to lie, that also makes me worried about even starting breedings. So, then, users are doing breedings in PMs instead of actual roleplays to make sure they can finish them, which means the key is just sitting there during this time.

What I would like to propose, especially because we now actually pay to purchase breeding keys, rather than they being free, like in the old days of Evelon, is that we completely abolish the time limit. Or, if not abolish the time limit completely, have it set to something like, "If a breeding remains inactive for X amount of time, THEN the breeding fails."

I also think we could benefit from abolishing the rule that one user can only be in one breeding at a time. When keys get released, often times, I plan to do a breeding with someone, but also plan to do a different breeding with someone else. Then one person gets stuck waiting for up to two weeks (or more, if other things come up afterward) while the other breeding is completed. Again, those could be changed to say something like, "Each user can only be in a breeding of each type at once," instead of only one, period, or being in however many they wanted.

More freedom of being able to breed when we want without restrictions on how long it takes us to complete the roleplay would likely get more people using their keys, as well.

[Mojave]

I just want to take a moment to clarify something, in case I've offended anyone or if I haven't been crystal clear. If my statements have generalized a group of people, that was not my intent. The core of what I'm saying is simply this: breeding is an aspect of this site that everyone loves and it should be more accessible. Those who already have at least one key should have to use the one(s) he or she has before they are allowed to get another.

I have nothing against using a key and going to the next restock to get another. I have no complaints about holding onto a key until a truly amazing pairing comes along you just can't pass up. Or holding onto a key while details get worked out. All I am voicing concern about is hoarding keys and causing restocks to cease.

EDIT in response to Toxie:
I also don't have a problem exchanging one key for a different key type, IF it is a key already in existence. The point of my suggestion to changing the rule so that you have to use a key you already own to get another is to increase the rate they are sold. If keys are sold say for example, twice a month, then you shouldn't need to exchange a key for a different one but wait for the next restock.

[Thunder]

...Or, if not abolish the time limit completely, have it set to something like, "If a breeding remains inactive for X amount of time, THEN the breeding fails."

I also think we could benefit from abolishing the rule that one user can only be in one breeding at a time. When keys get released, often times, I plan to do a breeding with someone, but also plan to do a different breeding with someone else. Then one person gets stuck waiting for up to two weeks (or more, if other things come up afterward) while the other breeding is completed. Again, those could be changed to say something like, "Each user can only be in a breeding of each type at once," instead of only one, period, or being in however many they wanted.

These are some interesting ideas o3o I'd definitely be open to these. I'd also prefer the "fails if inactive for x time" idea over the no time limit idea, since having no time limit does not seem conducive to maintaining a degree of activity on Evelon. Which is exactly what we're struggling with in the first place.

[Atoli01]

What I would like to propose, especially because we now actually pay to purchase breeding keys, rather than they being free, like in the old days of Evelon, is that we completely abolish the time limit. Or, if not abolish the time limit completely, have it set to something like, "If a breeding remains inactive for X amount of time, THEN the breeding fails."

I think there definitely should be a time limit of some sort. It's always been sort of a thing where it's like... there's still the chance of the breeding failing. I've always liked the concept actually? (Although I'm the kind who works better under pressure, in most cases. I can see why other people would want to abolish it, but that's part of the fun of it to me.) The second option could work, although it would require the mods to do a lot more monitoring the breedings, I would think. I still prefer the system that's in place already. (Although, it depends; how much time between posts are we talking? I could see it being comparable if it was maybe, say, three days, four max, to keep you moving the rp at a steady pace.) Would simply increasing the time limit to three weeks be enough, rather than revamping the current system?

I also think we could benefit from abolishing the rule that one user can only be in one breeding at a time. When keys get released, often times, I plan to do a breeding with someone, but also plan to do a different breeding with someone else. Then one person gets stuck waiting for up to two weeks (or more, if other things come up afterward) while the other breeding is completed. Again, those could be changed to say something like, "Each user can only be in a breeding of each type at once," instead of only one, period, or being in however many they wanted.

This point I agree with 100%. You're right that it could be the issue for some other users. It would probably get things moving a bit faster. I'd lean more toward the, "Each user can only be in a breeding of each type at once," rule rather than completely free, though.

[Jaykobell]

Wow look at all the breeding stuff.

Okay, I will try to keep this brief.

Time Limit on Usage of Key
Absolutely not. I categorically refuse. To me, this is like saying that you cannot hold on to a pet, and that, if you do not give it a personality within X months, we're going to take it from you and we're going to give it to another member. I paid for the key, I made efforts to get it. I sat there, watched the time, prepared my post; I did what I had to do to get it. Taking my earned items away from me because I have RL expectations and other such things is absolutely... not acceptable to me.

Usually, I'm just picky with breeding because a lot of my relationships here are sore. But I'm slowly trying to remedy that, but until I become comfortable again (I've had my fair share of stupid issues from breedings), I will be keeping my keys for my own purposes.

But you will always have hoarders, guys. And I am legitimately sorry if this opinion here sounds really crude and blunt and hurtful, but I just personally cannot accept that suggestion. .__. I would definitely breed, it's just my own stupid mental restrictions that keep me from doing it. I did do a bunch of Kuhna breedings for a time, and I did do a lot of Paragon ones too; and really, I haven't even bred any Soveri yet... so I'd like to keep my key.

I breed for plot, not for babies... herein lies my problem, but I know I'm not the only one.

Really I'm very sorry if this sounds really hurtful, I just, you're making me nervous with that suggestion LMAO... I love you guys, but just... no...

2-week Breeding Limit
Okay, this I think if a good idea. However... yes, I want a backup to it. I think changing it to "If the breeding has no activity for X amount of time, it fails" is a very good idea. Would putting the two weeks there sound like a plan? Or even... 1 week? I'm afraid 2 weeks, when assumed the person posts at the very limit... the breeding will last aaaaaaaaaaaaages. Idk... would you guys care to see that breeding sitting there for months? Honestly 1 post per 7 days is not a lot to ask for; especially when 5 sentences is honestly nothing. But you can tell me.

But, personally, I would be in favor of implementing this.

Being in One Breeding at One Time
Yes, I think this should be abolished. I believe this was implemented to stop overbreeding...? Or some such... or maybe it was related to the rule of your pet being in one place only at a time. I think it's a good idea to get rid of it; we also don't have to worry about overbreeding X line I'm looking at you Kyuukai since there are more users and more than 9000 breedables around.

So yes, 110% in favor of this. Very good idea.

Now, time for my own suggestions. And guys, I've said this before, I'll say it again here: posting/agree/disagreeing in your JOURNAL and/or IRC means NOTHING. Post HERE! Tell us HERE that you want these things. We cannot record the IRC stuff effectively and Journal entries get buried in other entries, etc. Post here in the same place! Then we can see the 20+ posts all together agreeing to something, and that's a pretty surefire way to know you guys want this.

On to it, then.

Unlimited Breeding
Okay, hold your horses, I can see you typing faster than lightning saying GIVE IT TO ME RIGHT NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW NO MORE KEYS YES.

I remember mentioning this before but now I can't find it, lmao, so I'm suggesting it here.
A while ago, when the issue of activity had come up, I suggested that maybe we could try a very, VERY experimental idea...

Abolishing Keys.

This would mean that at any time, with anyone, regardless of anything, you could breed. You could breed Soveris, you could breed Diosols, you could breed ANYTHING. You would still need potions and etc for varying results, but ultimately, you would skip the Key aspect. Wanna breed tonight? Go start a room. No Key? Doesn't matter. Go start a room.

Now, you might be asking... What would be wrong with that?

Well... for one, backlog. Sara's and Toxic's Soveris breeding sat there for almost a month. And it was the only one there. Keep in mind that I do not do breedings anymore, Silver is our pet artist and doesn't do breedings, and then Kodai needs to be clearly told. This leaves Kyrit and Krypto, who are busy with school, work, and life in general.

If people can breed with no Key restrictions, we might very well be facing a bad backlog. You guys might not be upset by it now when I'm saying it, but imagine having to sit down and wait for babies... for at least a month because of backlog. Some people have said that they would prefer to wait for babies rather than wait for keys... but when you're done, and you just need the babies to further your plots, etc... Idk.

It might also decrease interest in breeding. You might think, how? People will be happy to breed. That's certainly true... for a time. But then, after so many breedings, and after you've earned all your A licenses... then what? This is personally my problem, where I just don't feel the motivation to breed anymore because... I've already bred so much.

Then again, maybe we could expand the breeding system if this system somehow works out good enough.

Anyway, this would be VERY experimental. In alpha stage. My idea was to open this for ONE (1) MONTH, and see how it goes. I don't know if the other Mods would agree, this is honestly just my own idea. There is NOTHING guaranteed OR set in stone here. This is only for DISCUSSION purposes and nothing more.

Anyway, what do you guys think?

Second idea:

Special Topic for Key Requests
I see people like Toxic, who say they're holding Keys for people, and I also see people saying they're waiting for a Key for X plot or for X lifemate pairing.

How about a topic where you can come and request a Breeding Key because you want your characters to finally tie the knot? If you need children for a plot? Or even, if the breeding would just be character development? Such as, in your story, your character gets roped up in a breeding, ends up with children, and they become scarred/grow as a character/etc from it?

My idea would be to have a topic for that. It would be very simple: you come to the topic, give us the pair, and you explain why you want a Key. You don't have to write a novel, you don't have to link to previous topics... you just need to tell us the setting and reason behind you wanting to breed them, as stated above.

I think that's the core of the frustration for some. You REALLY want to breed because you HAVE ideas for plots, for canon children, etc, but you cannot breed because you have no key. And you have no key because of time zones, because of school/work schedules, because of lack of KS, or just because, whoops, you didn't dedicate your life to Evelon this past week in order to see they were being released.

I would like to establish some ground rules for it, such as being limited to X number of keys per month... just to avoid backlog. Or maybe one breeding per type per month? That's already like... 5 breedings in 4 weeks.

But would this interest people? It could be a free service (because you have reasons to breed your pets and it's not just for SUPER PWETTY KAWAII DESU SUGOINE PETSU!) or it could be that you have to pay the Key fee. Idk what would be best here.

But yes, discuss? Again, NO OTHER MOD has been told this idea. Nothing GUARANTEED or SET IN STONE.

I can't stress it enough lmao.

I think that's everything... Jesus so much typing. MY EVENING IS ALREADY GONE...

[Atoli01]

Unlimited Breeding: Noooooooooooo. Screams for the sake of the mods. I can see that being a nightmare and I wouldn't even have to deal with it. I... One month especially, is... Oh man. If you did decide to do it, I'd suggest opening it for a week max. You'd have 20+ different breedings going on even at that, though. (Maybe even then, with the current one room overall rule in place?) I just see it as being complete mayhem. I can also agree with it decreasing the interest in breeding. I definitely wouldn't recommend it, no matter how much I love getting new babies.

Special Topic for Key Requests: I think this is a really good idea, actually! Thumbs up! Maybe some tweaking would be in order, though? I'd almost go as far to say one key a month. Five makes me cringe in fear. If they're free, I think it'd actually be a pretty neat idea to run it more like the Wishing Well. I think, again, it'd get a little out of hand if people could just post a neat little story and get a key every time. I think it would encourage people to roleplay and be a little more active if you had to pay for the keys, though.

I don't know how much work it takes the mods to make babies for a single breeding, but one of my concerns with all this revamp stuff is just... How much work will it be on the mods? We still have to keep breeding a little bit on the down-low, considering that breedables aren't things that are generated with the click of a button. (Plus, I really like what I've been seeing with all the mods having such creative ideas for some of the babies. I wonder if that'd go down a little bit if you all had to slave over babies 24/7.)

Also, I'll just make a note here that I much prefer the raffle system that we've had as of late rather than straight out buying the keys. (Although paying the full price of the key could definitely still work in the case of that special key request thread.) Raffles give more people a chance to get keys, so that people aren't hindered by time zones/school/etc. (Plus raffles are pretty exciting for me, honestly.)

(I apologize if I offended anyone with the limited time key type thing, by the way. Just trying to throw whatever ideas out there.)

[Middy]

Agree with Shrewd, and if we did do unlimited breedings, then why not put a cap on how many rooms can be going on at a given time? Say... 10 or so, or even less so we don't have like 30 or more going on. A cap would be nice, but I dunno about people fighting over who gets to post lol

Also, a shame the mods couldn't hire new ones to help lower the workload. I don't often see places with so few moderators >_>

[Mojave]

I do NOT support the idea of having a time limit to use the key. I DO support having a time limit to finish the breeding roleplay once started. This prevents a rp from sitting there for forever. Though if the rule was changed to be "inactive for x amount of days = failure" I wouldn't complain either.

I TOTALLY SUPPORT THE TRIAL MONTH OF BREEDING FOR EVERYBODY! There is no text size large enough for this or a bright enough red. I personally don't think it would cause a huge problem once the initial OMG reaction died down a little (which would take a bit longer than a month, tbh). In fact, the main rush would be for people that have had breedings lined up for ages getting those done. The special part about breeding is the babies, not the act itself. I belive this was the deciding reason as to why the babies are made by hand rather than implement a generator. I know there was an argument that "if everyone is able to breed whenever, nobody will breed". We already have that problem with the keys, so I fail to see how that is a valid argument.

If however, we don't do 'breed without a key for a month or so" I would like to see unlimited keys. That way we still have to buy the key, but we're not waiting on releases. That would keep the number dependent on people earning ks- which requires roleplay at it's core.

If that still isn't agreeable, then increase the key releases to at LEAST once a month, WITH the rule that you cannot buy another key until you use the one you have. This would negate the need to hoard, though you certainly still could. It would solve the issue of holding keys for certain breedings because keys wouldn't be nigh impossible to obtain.

As for the special thread for lifemate/plot breedings, I would say (at least at first) it can only be used by newbies who can't afford a key themselves or for first time lifemates.

[zapdragon555]

Throwing in a quick 2 cents on the unlimited breeding idea, maybe only let each person be in 2 breedings max per month? And also Middy's suggestion with 10 max total breedings in the area? Thoughts, thoughts. I also like the special key request topic!

And I also might say we could trust our users with the responsibility of unlimited breeding? I figure a lot of people initially had Atoli's reaction of "oh god the mods are gonna explode with babies" and that would make us a little more modest about how often we'd make breedings? I feel like... it might regulate itself? It's certainly a revolutionary idea but it would be very interesting and make things, honestly, a lot less complicated with key recording, use, and ownership.

And also I'm not a huge fan of the key time limit because again that's just. Idk. It feels really pushy and wrong to me. But again I do like the # of keys you can have at a time limit.

[ToxicShadow]

In response to Shrewd's ideas...

Unlimited Breeding

For the same negative reasons you mentioned happening, I don't think I could agree with this without it having some sort of limitation.

Theoretically, it would be very neat, but I feel that the backlog it could cause could be potentially fatal to the system. Like you said, Sara and I recently had a breeding that went untouched for a long period of time when it was the only one there. I'm going to assume that it sat because, at least in part, that the staff that does breedings didn't have the time to get to it or used their available time on Evelon to work on other things. Knowing that, I'd be frightened by the potential backlog that would occur, the increased wait times for offspring, and even, possibly, the decreased quality of the babies. Potentially, I think the quality of the offspring could suffer if an artist felt they needed to rush through making the offspring just to try to deal with the backlog.

However, this could have the potential to work out amazingly well if users still had to pay KS in order to breed. (I say KS, because I don't want to see one user throw a ton of cash for GT into the system to get a head of everyone else.) Yes, abolish the key releases, but when you start a breeding, you automatically have to pay so much KS. Users could just note if only one person was paying the fee or if two users were splitting the cost. In having a fee to pay, it limits the breedings that will occur but leaves unlimited potential to breed. I also think it would inspire users to roleplay more to actually earn KS in order to buy the breeding right, since they would be guaranteed getting to do a breeding with the KS they earn, rather than hoping they can snag a key during a release. So, yay, possible activity increase?

Another potential limitation could be that, yes, we can choose to start a breeding whenever we want, but are limited to so many breedings a month?

The idea of a straight free-for-all, even for just a month, scares me to no end. xD;

Special Topic for Key Requests

SO MUCH WANT!

This reminds me of the contest that gave out breeding keys to characters that essentially desired offspring, or as something of a Wishing Well specifically for breeding keys.

Since I plan a lot of lifemate pairings or plots that involve characters having offspring, I would LOVE this. It would, essentially, also resolve my key hoarding issues, as I wouldn't feel the need to hang onto keys for so long for a certain pairing if I knew I had a good chance to be able to get a key for them when the time came.

If this does occur, just because of the great accessibility it would provide to the keys, I would be more than happy to still fork over KS in exchange for them or if there was some sort of limitation to so many per user for each month.

[Mojave]

I forgot to mention this earlier, but if there is enough interest in the breeding free for all, I would suggest trying it out during the Summer vacation months so nobody's schoolwork would be adversely affected.

[GrayGriffin]

I have to admit the idea of one month of unlimited breeding makes me nervous, but I do like the idea of having a topic where people can request keys for a specific plot.